Ahmadinejad DID NOT threaten to "wipe Israel off the map."

Champion wrote: there is not going to be a global economic collapse.

i wouldnt say that. Congress keeps extending our deficet and debt limit to "keep our government running." anything is possible, especially money problems

Champion wrote:
I agree with you that communism would be the ideal form of government for the world over. But thats the problem, communism only works if the government is in control of all the resources, which I do not see happening. Some economies are preparing for what is to come, and they will thrive and survive it. No dreaming on your part will change that. Thus the wise and prudent thing to do is not dream, but prepare ourselves. Guns and gold (technically, silver will give a better return right now statistically).

i disagree. Communist is a phantom word. Whats the difference between a socialist country that only allys with other socialist country? is it communism? is a country communist after it receives money from another socialist state? is government run healthcare communism? is food stamps, welfare, and social security? If a country was a true democracy and decided to vote on having government run health care or social security,(or any communist, or socialist trait) would it make it a communist state? I dont think any one government would be the ideal form to rule the world. Personally i like what siddartha taught. A middle path, not pure socialism or pure capitalism. But a middle between the two. Or we could just have a real democracy, which has infinite possibility's. (unlike what we have now, a constitutional republic) All governments have power issues and corruption issues. Its a human trait, and if we want to rid these problems, we should rid the earth of human beings. or make them all alike.

Dray The Fingerless wrote:Why label sth that is an ECONOMY system as apolitical system? I am not advocating leaders or what ideals a society should have, only the resources it has the right to have. Individualism must be encouraged, but most importantly, reasoning and rationality. Greed comes very often from a lack of self thinking. Greed comes because society is telling you right now "the more you have, the better". Because we are under the idea that we need to work and get more n more n more, we become greedy. If what we need to survive and be happy is already granted, we could do much more. If wanting more isnt JAMMED into our brains, we wont want more. We can focus on what each of us loves.

Btw, not marxism or communism. those involve ideologies and processes to meddle with people. i am simply saying to assess what each person needs, and give it to them, since it is a human right and a human duty.

There is plenty of resources on the Earth to allow all to have everything they need plus some luxury on top of that.

rsG wrote:

Champion wrote: there is not going to be a global economic collapse.

i wouldnt say that. Congress keeps extending our deficet and debt limit to "keep our government running." anything is possible, especially money problems

China and Russia will do just fine without the dollar or the USA. As long as China can continue to dump its dollars it has now. It has been doing it as fast as possible without wrecking its own economy. I think the US will hold out long enough for China to finish us off. Its a shame really, politicians dug this hole and now China not only led them into it, but are now throwing the dirt over us LOL. I can also mention the middle eastern countries, I am sure they will be just fine as well with their new major partners China and Russia and whatever reserve note they create for the post-US world.

rsG wrote:

Champion wrote:
I agree with you that communism would be the ideal form of government for the world over. But thats the problem, communism only works if the government is in control of all the resources, which I do not see happening. Some economies are preparing for what is to come, and they will thrive and survive it. No dreaming on your part will change that. Thus the wise and prudent thing to do is not dream, but prepare ourselves. Guns and gold (technically, silver will give a better return right now statistically).

i disagree. Communist is a phantom word. Whats the difference between a socialist country that only allys with other socialist country? is it communism? is a country communist after it receives money from another socialist state? is government run healthcare communism? is food stamps, welfare, and social security? If a country was a true democracy and decided to vote on having government run health care or social security,(or any communist, or socialist trait) would it make it a communist state? I dont think any one government would be the ideal form to rule the world. Personally i like what siddartha taught. A middle path, not pure socialism or pure capitalism. But a middle between the two. Or we could just have a real democracy, which has infinite possibility's. (unlike what we have now, a constitutional republic) All governments have power issues and corruption issues. Its a human trait, and if we want to rid these problems, we should rid the earth of human beings. or make them all alike.

Socialism is one thing, communism is another. Every country is socialist to a degree, the question is how much is enough? Communist ideals tend to be much more socialist and rightfully so by nature. And ideally, communism would have democracy. Why not? In fact, Communism without a democratic method for electing officials and government politicians is a dictatorship. True communism requires democracy. Its American propaganda that will tell you otherwise. I am feeling you though on what you are aiming for. Like I said, Marxist communism is outdated and not an ideal form of communism. A more scientific progressive communism would be ideal.

And man does need government. To quote Alexander Hamilton:

"Why has government been instituted at all? Because the passions of men will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice, without constraint."

Champion wrote:To quote Alexander Hamilton:

"Why has government been instituted at all? Because the passions of men will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice, without constraint."

yea well,
"Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
O'Rourke

rsG wrote:

Champion wrote:To quote Alexander Hamilton:

"Why has government been instituted at all? Because the passions of men will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice, without constraint."

yea well,
"Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
O'Rourke

Pretty bad quote, i will stick to Alexander Hamilton.

So many things wrong in this, I must fix.

albions wrote:
I must disagree. Money representate ammount of gold, silver and other valuable minerals that country have stored. But how do you imaginate life witout money/gold ? Back to barter like hundreds years ago ? You will cross whole country with tons of resources to exchange it for tons of for example food ? That may work only with small population but no when we talk about millions of people. And about inflation and deflation - those are strictly connected with gold so yea you can fight with them using gold.

1. There is x tons of gold in the world, gold prices will decrease and increase by how much is in circulation, eventually all of it will be, then what? How do you combat inflation and deflation. This is basic monetary policy.

2. You obviously have no economic background and have no idea what you are talking about because gold's value is not fixed, it is what the market will pay for it, thus, you cannot fight deflation and inflation with gold because the market is affected by inflation and deflation and the reaction of gold's price will be the markets, inflation or deflation. Only a monetary tool that exists independently of the market can combat the market's negative tendencies.

rsG wrote:

Champion wrote: there is not going to be a global economic collapse.

i wouldnt say that. Congress keeps extending our deficet and debt limit to "keep our government running." anything is possible, especially money problems

If we default on our debt obligations, we will be the only nation in the history of mankind to do so, and we will then experience and economic implosion of a certain order of magnitude great enough to knock off most of the world, because we decided to default instead of extending our deficit and debt ceiling.

Champion wrote:

albions wrote:Right now we can notice little rising up in economy that is forced because of money that goverments pumped in industry . But i dont belive that will stay more than few year. Or we will have next big rise or we well fall in crisis again.

Exactly. It's actually following the eerie pattern of the crash before WW2. The sudden peak then huge crash is almost identical to whats occurring now. Its basically the calm before the storm...

Before WWII, so many banks were failing, because their deposits were uninsured, and the drought in the west.

albions wrote:Yeah but according to crash before WWII if we find new zones of industry ( in past that was planes / military , after WWII it was mostly computers and entertiment ) we can find a way out of comming collapse. It could be for example space exploring. Everything comes to technology.

No... We got out of debt and got the economy growing through the most massive public works program in history, not the new deal, but WWII, if war comes about, americans are like, YA debt spending! and thats what they did, spent and spent, and we grew and grew, out of the depression, into recovery, suffered from a bout of post war demobilization but continued to grow and taxed away our inflation and paid our debts.

Champion wrote:

albions wrote:True. But i wasnt talking only about US. Whole world economy is in danger. And dollar right now is still strong ( but quickly falling ). Now its best (and only rational ) time for taking up reforms and finding new place for funds. It will get worse and worse in time. Circumsatances maybe was diffrent then but its not like we dont have a places in world where we couldnt invest money . For example look at Africa - im not talking only about the most poor contries there. Right now we can see what is happening in Egypt, Oman, Libia , Ethiopia etc. After democratic revolutions there will be needed funds and invest there may be best solution.

I am not an economist or have a really deep understanding of economics but I fail to see how the US can pull itself out of the downward spiral it is now in. Especially with so many countries moving to get rid of the dollar itself for trading.

US can pull out by increasing spending, modernizing infrastructure and by investing in areas that are too risky for the private sector to handle to create things. Getting rid of the dollar, in my opinion, won't change international trade too much, instead we'll just use the chinese currency, seeing as they actually used a giant stimulus compared to GDP.

Increased spending in what Nihil? And where do you get all this economic info from? The stuff I read showed a distinct pattern in the market after WW2 that seems to be the pattern now. I sincerely would like to know how you obtained your knowledge of economics.

Also, what areas should they invest in? And how long do you think this country has to change its ways before its too late? Everything I have read says its too late now. What do you think?

oy if only the government would actually see this and consider it >.> but if we could use communism and democracy as one, it was be a perfect from of government. now how people would actually use it is a whole different ordeal

soran wrote:oy if only the government would actually see this and consider it >.> but if we could use communism and democracy as one, it was be a perfect from of government. now how people would actually use it is a whole different ordeal

Nah communism and democracy go hand in hand if you think about it. A communist world would require people in key positions to distribute resources and to monitor those distributing it, and more monitoring etc. Due to human nature, we would not want those people to remain in those offices long. It should be cycled out. Thus a way to be elected to those offices for a term is practical. I mean how else would you decide who does what when it comes to power? It MUST be a democracy otherwise it is merely a dictatorship in guise of communism, like China, Cuba etc.

i hate those labels. communism. democracy.


Nihil, watch n learn.

Labels are needed to identify things. You just don't like what they represent. Does not mean the label itself is bad. Psychopath and Serial Killer are two labels I am sure you would like to have if you were in a room with a few of them.

Yes, i hate these labels. i dont hate labeling as a whole. these labels however, represent two thigns that are either too strict, too impratical, or too obsolete for a society like ours.

ah another fucked up but true statement by champ

If America follows again what happened after WW2 we should be fine. A few recessions within the next 15-20 years or so but in the long run we'll be alright. Also for all of you saying how China is so great and all, have you actually looked into the economics of China? Half of their industry is full of corruption and there is also the no safety-factor which when China does have to modernize their safety standards will take a enormous chunk out of their overall.

Their markets are also running like a bubble, their real estate sector for example is due for an enormous crash just cause of the outrageous inflation in prices. Banks also are doing the same thing what US banks are doing and have a special prize. They're basically telling government owned banks to lend out to all these companies that are ''booming'' the economy with no actual money to pay it back yet, and tell them to keep on lending to keep the economy bubble inflating. Essentially, the Chinese government is pulling the same thing the US is just on a way bigger scale. Of course the US economy will become second or even-lower, most likely it will stay in the top 20. That is expected though that the US would become inferior to the Chinese economy simply because of the amount of manpower they have, they have more 4x the amount of people and with the way the Chinese language is constructed. Their mathematics is more efficiently done than with the US language and everyone knows Math= money.

Also with the Gold backup, it may be good in a total collapse of the World civilization which is still mostly unlikely even with all the current events. Gold is also horrible for return on investment as inflation usually hammers away at the increase of gold prices along with it having no practical value at all. In the event of a world collapse, I'd say fertile soil would be the most valuable commodity in the world along with fresh water lakes/reservoirs

soran wrote:ah another fucked up but true statement by champ

Another important point to consider is that morals, ethics and values change with time. If we allow a single person or an elite group of people to rule for long periods of time as we see in Cuba and China etc, you also note a stagnation of those very things. That is why those countries are some of the biggest violators of human rights, because they do not move with the times since there laws are trapped in the minds of a few, corrupt individuals who might have meant well at first. But as mentioned, due to human nature it will ultimately corrupt them. With a democratic communist state, we can constantly bring in fresh minds to advance our moral laws. Using science we can even further this, but testing our morals and ethics in the truest sense. What is a moral? Its merely a way of thinking which provides maximum benefit to the community with minimal collateral damage. What better than the scientific process to determine that?

Talkin'boutFreedom wrote:If America follows again what happened after WW2 we should be fine. A few recessions within the next 15-20 years or so but in the long run we'll be alright. Also for all of you saying how China is so great and all, have you actually looked into the economics of China? Half of their industry is full of corruption and there is also the no safety-factor which when China does have to modernize their safety standards will take a enormous chunk out of their overall.

Their markets are also running like a bubble, their real estate sector for example is due for an enormous crash just cause of the outrageous inflation in prices. Banks also are doing the same thing what US banks are doing and have a special prize. They're basically telling government owned banks to lend out to all these companies that are ''booming'' the economy with no actual money to pay it back yet, and tell them to keep on lending to keep the economy bubble inflating. Essentially, the Chinese government is pulling the same thing the US is just on a way bigger scale. Of course the US economy will become second or even-lower, most likely it will stay in the top 20. That is expected though that the US would become inferior to the Chinese economy simply because of the amount of manpower they have, they have more 4x the amount of people and with the way the Chinese language is constructed. Their mathematics is more efficiently done than with the US language and everyone knows Math= money.

Also with the Gold backup, it may be good in a total collapse of the World civilization which is still mostly unlikely even with all the current events. Gold is also horrible for return on investment as inflation usually hammers away at the increase of gold prices along with it having no practical value at all. In the event of a world collapse, I'd say fertile soil would be the most valuable commodity in the world along with fresh water lakes/reservoirs

I think you are not realizing that after WW2 we inherited the great ability to simply print money to buy things since the dollar was now starting to be used as reserve funds for most nations. It was not until the collapse of the British Sterling that the dollar had exclusive rights to this honor. Everything in the world is traded in dollars, and the US alone can print new dollars. If the economy collapses and China, Russia and other major nations decide to start using a new reserve fund, I doubt we will see a post WW2 like revival.

And regarding China, who is going to force them to modernize their morals and ethics? Safety standards are something the west invented. They do not need to adhere to that. And if you read my above post you will understand why they do not. One of the reasons they have been modernizing so fast is because they have tremendous purchasing power. China holds the largest dollar reserve in the entire world. This has allowed them to modernize at a very rapid pace, but now that they have used us like a ragdoll, they are getting rid of the dollar faster than a two cent hooker. Why would they do that unless they were preparing for something BIG? A year or so back China met with Russia, France and a few Middle Eastern countries. The US was not invited. Later it was found out the purpose of the meeting was to establish an international exchange and a new currency to serve as a reserve standard. If these huge and industrious countries all decide to no longer use the dollar as its reserve fund, what is stopping the smaller countries from following suit? It is inevitable that a collapse will happen and China is one of the key players bringing it about. The US media and politicians do not want you to know about this, because they need to devalue the dollar eventually. If they announced these things, people would be dumping their dollars long before the gov could devalue it.

The government cares about itself first. When an economic collapse occurs, and the chaos that will ensue, it will not care about you as a person. It will only care about preserving itself. So of course they will DENY DENY DENY and shut the media up about it.

Also I think you are right on the money about owning land, the problem is claiming that land and enforcing your claim should a new gov be propped up in place of an old one. Gold can be hidden and stored for later. I would actually recommend silver right now, its at an all time low in comparison to the value of gold and is rapidly shooting up in value.

i have learned more about economics in here then i have in a half year of school. that proves the failure of the american education system lol

thats because they dont teach you the harsh truth. On retrospect, Champ, what will people do when most of the jobs have bcome replaced by automats? Bare in mind, building automats is made by automats, and creative engineering, you know, designing stuff and shit like that, is not possible for ALL the world to work in. There is simply no demand to have 400 engineers working in a new paper clip.

Dray The Fingerless wrote:thats because they dont teach you the harsh truth. On retrospect, Champ, what will people do when most of the jobs have bcome replaced by automats? Bare in mind, building automats is made by automats, and creative engineering, you know, designing stuff and shit like that, is not possible for ALL the world to work in. There is simply no demand to have 400 engineers working in a new paper clip.

Ideally we would control the population to a point where we would have enough to work whatever it is needed, and then perhaps send the rest to colonize another planet. Those sorts of answers are difficult and require a lot of thought I have not really given the matter yet. We could also consider just allowing humans to focus on the arts and leisure instead of "work." Allow people to learn how to play instruments, design things, garden and landscape to make the Earth a beautiful place, etc.

Champion wrote:

rsG wrote:

Champion wrote:To quote Alexander Hamilton:

"Why has government been instituted at all? Because the passions of men will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice, without constraint."

yea well,
"Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."
O'Rourke

Pretty bad quote, i will stick to Alexander Hamilton.

my parents should of never gave me the internet and whiseky

That would involve not requiring a amount of income. Also bare in mind the substitution by automats IS a real thing, and it WILL happen this century. There already finished plans for automats that build, i kid you not, houses from the bottom to top. Mass unemployment, no means to support paying for things.

Also the commercial end is getting substituted as well(for prime example, see: ATM, electronic item inventory, digital distribution of games and movies, etc etc).

Dray The Fingerless wrote:That would involve not requiring a amount of income. Also bare in mind the substitution by automats IS a real thing, and it WILL happen this century. There already finished plans for automats that build, i kid you not, houses from the bottom to top. Mass unemployment, no means to support paying for things.

Umm explain to me who exactly they plan to build all this crap for if no one can work? Now in a communistic society they would be perfect. But with an economic system it will just produce fail, not houses.

Even though we gained the ability to simply print money for things, the US
government could not go all willy nilly with it since it would simply hurt America's people. Also I don't think anyone realizes the potential to destroy China by us inflating the US dollar.

Also did that Yuan and Dollar correlation contract expire yet?

well the thing about learning the musical arts is that, the music industry is sooo packed with people tring to get out there that theres alot of people who can be rlly rlly good but never ever even noticed