lol

not following...is this another crazy act to avoid your crisis or sth?

henceforth why capitalism no longer works....glad to see you have a brain cog.

<__< probably standard

wouldnt matter

hmm... so you would expect some of us to work and be productive so you can sit on your bum and do nothing?

Dray The Fingerless wrote: why capitalism no longer works

none further than mainstream school edu?

sw1ft wrote:

Dray The Fingerless wrote: why capitalism no longer works

none further than mainstream school edu?

not following what you mean by that. please be clearer

Capitalism works just fine Dray, what the U.S. has is not capitalism though it's an attempt to be both socialism and capitalism and it's succeeding at neither.

Aardvark wrote:Capitalism works just fine Dray, what the U.S. has is not capitalism though it's an attempt to be both socialism and capitalism and it's succeeding at neither.

no it really doesnt work anymore. capitalism is based on the demand and supply market. for that market to work, both the demanders and the suppliers have to be human. demand means tehre is moeny to be gain, wich means people can earn money by supplying, therefore demanding on their own. cycle.

LOOK im not saying other economical venues are better, but due to its immense focus on the open market, capitalism is SEERIOUSLY fatal right now.

problem is, supply is slowly, but at an accelerating rate alarmingly, less and less human. factories work on machines, and even the comercial front is being replaced by machines as well. unemployment is not going down ever, and the jobs have shifted from industry to comercial areas. now people work at restaurants, shops , call support, etc. and THOSE jobs are in LESS number than in industry prodution. much less. and THOSE JOBS are also being replaced! same way ATMs replace a lot of banking jobs, easier technology calls for less n less people to be needed at a store or warehouse or a call center.

the supply is no longer human, therefore no humans are gaining money to demand, and tehrefore, there is no demand. the cycle is broken. not necessarily bad if we start accepting societal evolution. add to that the HUGE population growth we have and you have recipee for collapse of the competitive market and dependence on that market for a living.

ive always said we are no more than efficient animals, since a human being STILL has to fight in a way to survive out there. only when the well being of a human is the norm in society, not the luxury, will we truly become superior to our non sapient brethren. but that is more than this discussion.

Machine's have to be maintained, programs have to be written, and everything electronic still has to be reviewed by human eyes because no technology is infallible. It's not that there are less jobs so much as jobs now require you to actually know your ass from a hole in the ground(at least until you're the CEO). The actual problem right now is that we keep ending up in the vicious cycle of: Machines replace people unwilling to learn new skills, less revenue is present next quarter, company lays off more people and replace them with machines to compensate for lost revenue, they continue to loose money in the next quarter, and on and on. Company's right now are anticipating their loses and cutting them early not realizing they're essentially fulfilling their own prophecy by doing so.

Unfortunately the only way to fix this is for the government to impose more rules and regulations and support more people out of it's own pocket in order to FORCE the industry to start expanding again. This wouldn't be a problem if the rules and regulations were removed once the industry got to a stable level but people are creatures of habit and are unwilling to let go once they have something so each time you go through a period of tech growth evolving the industry you have to impose more and more regulations and support more and more people until you start to more closely resemble socialism than capitalism.

Of course there are many ways to solve the problem but they require people of wealth to look out for more than just themselves and invest in others.

That is VASTLY untrue aard. want an example? look at what cog posted. before emails, u needed a lot of manpower to deliver mail. now you need MUCH less, since the only thing emails need of manpower in ESSENCE, is one or two man to check on server once in a while. you can think it out all you want. a machine that does the work for 20 men, only needs one man to maintain it. this goes without mentioning that more and more mahinery in the industry sector(im gonna talk abotu the one that needs more support by humans.) has self diagnostic protocols, so that tehy will in most cases actually notify if sth is going wrong. even LESS manpower is needed now, since there is little need for constant surveillance. you are simply not grasping teh numbers here. let me pull soem out of my ass, but in a correct proportion.

say you had in the 50s, 100 workers in a factory, and 20 people to handle comercial sales and transport. nowadays, you need maybe 10 workers for the same job in the factory, and maybe 10 for the comercial and sale part. this is of course for a SMALL business.

say detroit level company. employed 8000 workers in a factory, 1000 for comercial sale and transport around. machines nowadays acn do the job of 20 men per machine or MORE, but lets go for 20. lets say you need one man to check on 20 machines, or 30 every so often. thats about....
20 workers in a factory that used to hire 8000. staggering isnt it? now you could argue more production carries emroe jobs to the distribution and comercialization area. employment rates going up EVERYWHERE IN TEH WORLD show differently. it used to take a team of scientists to operate one computer to make a math equation in a day. it takes 1 lazy secretary to nowadays to send mail, order things, make phonecalls, arrange meetings and keep evth in order for a small company.

this. trend.will.keep. going.

we no longer require 8000 men to build a house, or build a car, or send mail, or arrange anything. we have become obsolete. thats the reality. you can say machiens need supervision, well put it like this. the guy that used to supervise the workers floor in the 50s, making sure they were doing alright, is the only guy left in that factory. only hes watching machiens now, not men.

And the work shifts from doing the factory work to maintaining the machines, building them, designing them, and securing the now electronically stored information. It may not be the same rate but it's not a 20 to 1 ratio either. Overall I'd say at best you're looking at 2 to 1 in overall jobs because while the company that buys them requires less the company that supplies them needs people to design and build them as well as securing the plans from competitors both physically and electronically. But you're right this will keep going, although I'm hoping Star Trek becomes a reality by then.

heres the shocker to THAT theory as well. machines are building machines now aard. the machines that build cars, are made by machiens that build those machiens. and the machines that build those machiens also allow for them to build themselves. self assembly. designing them only takes one time. and it doesnt take a factory of people to do it. the rate is higher tha 2 to 1. i dunno if its 20 to 1, but it gets close to that.

I think you're giving technology a little more credit than it deserves, machines are still pieces of shit so there will always need to be people repairing, diagnosing them and of the likes. Although the efficiency is quite dandy and replaces a lot of ''useless'' jobs so people can do other things. One thing though is we will absolutely have to switch from simple, no training/education needed manufacturing to highly specialized service related jobs, which our lovely hardworking generation (bunch of lazy asses) are not willing to switch to. That or our education system completely blows and we're not educated enough to perform them

Talkin'boutFreedom wrote:I think you're giving technology a little more credit than it deserves, machines are still pieces of shit so there will always need to be people repairing, diagnosing them and of the likes. Although the efficiency is quite dandy and replaces a lot of ''useless'' jobs so people can do other things. One thing though is we will absolutely have to switch from simple, no training/education needed manufacturing to highly specialized service related jobs, which our lovely hardworking generation (bunch of lazy asses) are not willing to switch to. That or our education system completely blows and we're not educated enough to perform them

right now, yes machiens are shitty. give it 10 years thou. youll see buildings and buildngs and builings of assembly lines, with out a living soul in them. shopping malls where a machine lets you choose what you want and payments are made on it like a vending machine. pretty much the only place unnaffected by this is the trannsportationt system, namely trucks and packing. thatll go too, the packing. and the added problem to all this is that we are growing in population...

and even if you educate them...what are they gonna do? well all be arquitects? programmers?

No, that's impossible and that's what is wrong with America (maybe some other countries) today. The dream is everyone can be a engineer,CEO, Doctor, lawyer...well more of the college dream. Which is why this whole go to college thing blows. Even 10-20 years in the future, you won't have robots coming to your house to install cable, troubleshoot your electrical problems or even appliances, hence why the future will be all service related jobs. Just futuristic version of the ol bartering system. I also don't think humans will be that stupid to automate everything so early on, it's just stupid to even put such reliance on technology, on the scale you're mentioning at least.

oh? then how come the candy man is dead ? replaced with vending machines. restaurants? replaced with fast food(fast food restaurants employ at most half the staff of a normal restaurant of teh same caliber in customer numbers.) im not saying there wont be jobs serv. but they will be unbearably too little jobs...service providing doesnt employ nearly as much as industrial employment did. it just DOESNT. and with self education, people wont have to rely on a man coming to their hosue everytime sth breaks. at least if humans are to depend on a free market. i think people are gonna need basic rights, because dependence on finding a job and getting money will no longer be sustainable enough. thats what im saying in the end.

also, 30 years ago, people didnt think the industrial sector would be completely dead, or that we would no longer need the post office services. in 10 20 years, automation is teh future. humanity has plateaued in advance, and is now only improving quality, wich means coming closer to cornucopia.

also, on other news, bacterias were found that produce natural fuel usable in cars by consuming anything really, like trash. aka, we found a sustainable fuel source. clean too, and not as dangerous as normal bio fuels., that can be acquired by using our wastes.