Re: Abortion? or No Abortion?

by **SouLCasT** Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:16 pm

You know, even tho a girl would get raped, she could still carry the baby, but not take care of it. There are people out there who CAN'T conceive, and would be most happy to take care of the unwanted baby, and give it a home. And yet, a caterpillar does not have the required intelligence to do that, it can still feel pain if you kill it. And actually, the caterpillar IS the butterfly. It does not change anything but it's appearance, and behavior.

by Nihil Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:45 pm

You are blurring the lines of reality; you can't hold up a caterpillar and call it a butterfly.

Either way, too, you could go get a woman pregnant and not have to suffer the consequences and actual physical pain that a woman must.

Abortions will happen either way, many people have died because of the 'back ally abortions' that I was talking about.

by **dandaman7** Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:48 pm

In my opinion, there is a moral difference from a human life and a caterpillar.

by **Aureus** Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:50 pm

It doesn't rlly matter what is right and wrong anymore.

It's legal and most likely will always be. That's the reality of it

by **dandaman7** Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:07 pm

Master CoG wrote:It doesn't rlly matter what is right and wrong anymore.

It's legal and most likely will always be. That's the reality of it

So morals don't matter anymore?

by Nihil Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:30 pm

You called a fetus a human, there you go again...

by **Ptolemy** Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:44 pm

Nihil wrote:You called a fetus a human, there you go again...

Nihil there are those of us that consider a fetus a human. do not try to impose YOUR beliefs on us.

You believe it is a mass of tissue We believe it is a human being. just because YOU do not believe it does not mean it is wrong.

And before you pull websites out of your tail to prove me wrong, don't bother. It is a belief like my faith and belief in God. wrong or right, in this instance, is not up to you to judge.

by Nihil Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:51 pm

Great, then don't try to enforce your beliefs upon others and make them not get an abortion Razz

Also the logic is not sane, a caterpillar is not a butterfly.

by **SouLCasT** Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:38 pm

It has the same mind, it has the same organs, therefor it is STILL the same, even if not completely.

Your problem is that you are stuck in past, you don't think of what IT WILL BECOME, you only think at what it is now.That's why you don't consider a fetus a human.

by **dandaman7** Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:42 pm

Actually I meant to say 'between a human and a butterfly'. But I guess that works too. But yea, think of that huge impact that butterflies have had on our world, almost as much as humans eh? I find comparisons like that silly really.

by **Disturbed** Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:48 pm

dandaman7 wrote:Actually I meant to say 'between a human and a butterfly'. But I guess that works too. But yea, think of that huge impact that butterflies have had on our world, almost as much as humans eh? I find comparisons like that silly really.

actually, that is a perfect comparison if he kept it to that. Instead he went on to describe how we wouldn;t kill one, or we kill seeds and trees etc...that just made his argument into a bad joke.

It will become a butterfly, fetus, after a certain stage, will certainly develop into a human.

Nihil, what would u say to this:

Allow one abortion per person, only if the foetus is at most a month old. If it is older than a month too bad.

by Nihil Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:00 pm

Thats ridiculous, what if a tragic event happens that precludes this mother from giving birth to a child that she can raise, loss of a job, spouse, etc. What if the baby is found to have a terminal disease?

Also I didn't say if you kill a butterfly you kill seeds or trees, where are you getting that Dist? Obviously you guys aren't understanding me if you took that away from the analogy.

If you protect the mother in cases of rape, then, you must realize, that you are instituting a draconian punishment system, which, then, you throw away the idea of equal rights for fetuses and humans and treat humans with the priority.

How about this, what is more important to you, a fetus or a human? If you had to save one, the existing people, or the fetuses, who would you save? THE HUMANS OF COURSE. Because they have connections, feelings, thoughts, etc. That just shows you how they don't have equal rights and are not as important.

by **Tanya** Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:08 pm

I don't know when I was watching Charmed few years ago Piper was pregnant and all 3 sisters went to attack some demon, Phoebe and Paige were asking for Pipers help and Piper ran and hide, was afraid that she will lose a baby (fetus) so she even put lives of her sisters that she loves so much on risk, two humans to save one fetus :-)

by **SouLCasT** Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:09 pm

What would you save? A 99 year old man, who has lived his life at max, or a fetus, which can also live it's life?

by **Ptolemy** Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:12 pm

Nihil wrote:Great, then don't try to enforce your beliefs upon others and make them not get an abortion

Also the logic is not sane, a caterpillar is not a butterfly.

You cannot legislate morality. I believe one thing you believe another. in my mind it is murder in yours it is disposal of unwanted tissue, little more than a parasite to be eradicated. In my mind it just adds to the culture of death that has taken root in the US.

I think it is sad, you applaud the 'freedom'.

by **Tanya** Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:16 pm

I think that he is like robot, that's why we don't agree. He thinks as programed, what he read from a book, and we think as humans, live beings so for us human being is more important, in any form.

by **SouLCasT** Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:18 pm

In Romania, you can have an abortion, but you need to make a request, and you can do it ONLY if it's in the first 3 months of pregnancy...But even if it's past, after the baby is born, you can give it up for adoption, or give it to the nursing houses ( I think that's what it's called)...
It's not like an orphanage, it's more like the place some old people stay..

The babies get taken care of, they join school, and when they're grown up, they can find a job, a house and THEN leave the nursing house...

by **dandaman7** Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:22 pm

Nihil wrote:Thats ridiculous, what if a tragic event happens that precludes this mother from giving birth to a child that she can raise, loss of a job, spouse, etc. What if the baby is found to have a terminal disease?

Also I didn't say if you kill a butterfly you kill seeds or trees, where are you getting that Dist? Obviously you guys aren't understanding me if you took that away from the analogy.

If you protect the mother in cases of rape, then, you must realize, that you are instituting a draconian punishment system, which, then, you throw away the idea of equal rights for fetuses and humans and treat humans with the priority.

How about this, what is more important to you, a fetus or a human? If you had to save one, the existing people, or the fetuses, who would you save? THE HUMANS OF COURSE. Because they have connections, feelings, thoughts, etc. That just shows you how they don't have equal rights and are not as important.

Just so you know, you called the fetus a baby in the second sentence. Depends which human it was really, if it was a trade for Osama Bin Laden for a fetus, I would choose the fetus. If you meant a trade for all humans for all fetuses, well my answer would be controversial. :p
How do you feel about partial-birth abortion then Nihil?
Lol Tanya
Interesting Soul

by Nihil Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:25 pm

I think its sad that you didn't even answer two part retaliation. But to answer you, if you can't legislate morality, then you should be all for abortions, because, say, someone on your side of the family wouldn't get one, but say, another person might. Also, in my mind, then you want a world of back alley abortions,

"The World Health Organization (WHO) reports each year nearly 42 million women faced with unintended pregnancies have abortions;[3] and according to the 2007 estimates conducted collaboratively by the WHO and Guttmacher Institute, 20 million unsafe abortions take place each year, most in countries where abortion is illegal.[4]"

You think that is morally superior to an abortion? I don't think so. Don't tell me that they had a choice, because, the fetus can't make choices, then don't tell me that it has a voice, because it doesn't it can't think, feel, hear, etc.

I would save the old man, because you don't know how much longer he will live, and you don't know if the fetus is a miscarriage, simple as that.

Tanya, that is selfish, a fetus doesn't even have the same rights as a human and that pregnant one risked two lives to protect one that wasn't even 'alive', as a baby is, at that point.

Also Dan, they can only perform tests like that on live babies, not fetuses, at least to my knowledge.

by **dandaman7** Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:33 pm

Ptolemy wrote:
And before you pull websites out of your tail to prove me wrong, don't bother.

Nihil wrote:

"The World Health Organization (WHO) reports each year nearly 42 million women faced with unintended pregnancies have abortions;[3] and according to the 2007 estimates conducted collaboratively by the WHO and Guttmacher Institute, 20 million unsafe abortions take place each year, most in countries where abortion is illegal.[4]"

Now, you would choose an old man, if they could practically do nothing anymore, has already lived his life, rather than a fetus which has so much more potential? And you don't see anything wrong with that?

by **Ptolemy** Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:37 pm

Nihil wrote:I think its sad that you didn't even answer two part retaliation. But to answer you, if you can't legislate morality, then you should be all for abortions, because, say, someone on your side of the family wouldn't get one, but say, another person might. Also, in my mind, then you want a world of back alley abortions,

"The World Health Organization (WHO) reports each year nearly 42 million women faced with unintended pregnancies have abortions;[3] and according to the 2007 estimates conducted collaboratively by the WHO and Guttmacher Institute, 20 million unsafe abortions take place each year, most in countries where abortion is illegal.[4]"

You think that is morally superior to an abortion? I don't think so. Don't tell me that they had a choice, because, the fetus can't make choices, then don't tell me that it has a voice, because it doesn't it can't think, feel, hear, etc.

I would save the old man, because you don't know how much longer he will live, and you don't know if the fetus is a miscarriage, simple as that.

Tanya, that is selfish, a fetus doesn't even have the same rights as a human and that pregnant one risked two lives to protect one that wasn't even 'alive', as a baby is, at that point.

Also Dan, they can only perform tests like that on live babies, not fetuses, at least to my knowledge.

I answered what i thought was directed at me... and why would i go against what i believe if i do not believe you cannot legislate morality? That is moronic.

so you would save the one whose life is over rather than the one whose life is in front of them.

In many states you can be charged with murder if your actions causes a miscarriage.

Again you are applying your beliefs to someone else's statement like you are the definitive opinion.

Partial birth abortion is not a test. it is a procedure in which the baby is partially born before it's life is terminated. see because it is not fully 'alive' because it is still in the birth canal. it is not a 'test' that site is diagrams of the procedure not RL graphics

by Nihil Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:54 pm

Ptolemy wrote:
Nihil wrote:I think its sad that you didn't even answer two part retaliation. But to answer you, if you can't legislate morality, then you should be all for abortions, because, say, someone on your side of the family wouldn't get one, but say, another person might. Also, in my mind, then you want a world of back alley abortions,

"The World Health Organization (WHO) reports each year nearly 42 million women faced with unintended pregnancies have abortions;[3] and according to the 2007 estimates conducted collaboratively by the WHO and Guttmacher Institute, 20 million unsafe abortions take place each year, most in countries where abortion is illegal.[4]"

You think that is morally superior to an abortion? I don't think so. Don't tell me that they had a choice, because, the fetus can't make choices, then don't tell me that it has a voice, because it doesn't it can't think, feel, hear, etc.

I would save the old man, because you don't know how much longer he will live, and you don't know if the fetus is a miscarriage, simple as that.

Tanya, that is selfish, a fetus doesn't even have the same rights as a human and that pregnant one risked two lives to protect one that wasn't even 'alive', as a baby is, at that point.

Also Dan, they can only perform tests like that on live babies, not fetuses, at least to my knowledge.

I answered what i thought was directed at me... and why would i go against what i believe if i do not believe you cannot legislate morality? That is moronic.

so you would save the one whose life is over rather than the one whose life is in front of them.

In many states you can be charged with murder if your actions causes a miscarriage.

Again you are applying your beliefs to someone else's statement like you are the definitive opinion.

Partial birth abortion is not a test. it is a procedure in which the baby is partially born before it's life is terminated. see because it is not fully 'alive' because it is still in the birth canal. it is not a 'test' that site is diagrams of the procedure not RL graphics

First off you contradicted yourself Ptolemy, you said that you believed that one cannot legislate morality. Now you are saying, "I answered what i thought was directed at me... and why would i go against what i believe if i do not believe you cannot legislate morality? That is moronic. "

Also, I don't know how much longer he will live, and Ptolemy, SOME pregnancies ARE miscarriages, not by choice, those are facts not me applying me beliefs to another's statement.

Also, Partial Births were outlawed a while back, I forget when.

dandaman7 wrote:
Ptolemy wrote:
And before you pull websites out of your tail to prove me wrong, don't bother.

Nihil wrote:

"The World Health Organization (WHO) reports each year nearly 42 million women faced with unintended pregnancies have abortions;[3] and according to the 2007 estimates conducted collaboratively by the WHO and Guttmacher Institute, 20 million unsafe abortions take place each year, most in countries where abortion is illegal.[4]"

Now, you would choose an old man, if they could practically do nothing anymore, has already lived his life, rather than a fetus which has so much more potential? And you don't see anything wrong with that?

Ya, I don't see anything wrong with that, would you save your grandfather or your 15 year old cousin's gestating fetus?

by **Tanya** Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:06 pm

Nihil you still quote someone's words, you don't have 1% experience of what you are talking about, but I will always be closer to abortion then you and I understand better. Woman has rights to do anything with her body, but killing innocent life form, especially innocent human life form will always be wrong and that is what is selfish. And people will always try to save life form that they love most, even if that means they have to sacrifice those who they love less.

by Nihil Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:27 pm

you obviously aren't reading them, I quote them to reestablish the subject and allow the reader to more easily access the information which I am talking about.

Also, you cannot love something you have never met, that is, a fetus, and you know, a lot of women could say that they are closer to an abortion than you and that they believe in it.

An innocent life denotes the ability of a life to interact and to choose its actions in an innocent manner. A fetus CANNOT DO ANY OF THOSE.

by **Ptolemy** Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:52 pm

Nihil wrote:you obviously aren't reading them, I quote them to reestablish the subject and allow the reader to more easily access the information which I am talking about.

Also, you cannot love something you have never met, that is, a fetus, and you know, a lot of women could say that they are closer to an abortion than you and that they believe in it.

An innocent life denotes the ability of a life to interact and to choose its actions in an innocent manner. A fetus CANNOT DO ANY OF THOSE.

Yeah you sound just like a guy trying to convince his girl friend to end an 'oooppss'. I did not learn to love my son after he was born. The effect of finding out my wife was pregnant was profound and loved her and my Son... sight unseen... would not have mattered to me if he came out with three balls and a purple gotee.

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