Re: Abortion? or No Abortion?

by **Aragorn** Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:00 pm

You don't have to interact to be alive. Fetus do interact. They respond. They kick and respond to their mothers actions. It can choose whether to kick or not. It has a heartbeat by day 21. When your heart beats, you're alive.

''At 18 days [when the mother is only four days late for her first menstrual period], and by 21 days it is pumping, through a closed circulatory system, blood whose type is different from that of the mother. J.M. Tanner, G. R. Taylor, and the Editors of Time-Life Books, Growth, New York: Life Science Library, 1965, p.''

by **Disturbed** Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:11 pm

big question?

WTF DOES A GRANDFATHER HAVE TO DO WITH THE FETUS???!?!?!?

....its not like he's giving birth and something, and if u say grandmother, then u come from a whack family

Dude, ur not getting it. Tragic event? Tragic events happen all the time...one of them being the birth of George W. Bush. That does not mean we should abandon morality for the sake of tragic events. Killing babies so a 'mother' can have sex is like killing Iraqis to get oil. We are putting luxuries over life instead of life over life.

Because most of the times, birth does not cause death of mother, especially not in the mass numbers you quoted in terms of abortions. Otherwise, this race would be having a hard time going further.

Tragic events have a good deal of foreboding btw, divorces usually are not overnight tho in these times job losses sort of are. However, if the mother is so borderline in her condition that a single random event would make it impossible for her to raise the child, she should not be having one.

THe problem is, ppl want other to think for them. I personally believe that its time America force and let its people think out their decisions rather than letting them handicap all the way through. It makes the nation stupid and crippled (mentally).

I think you are over exaggerating the damage a child can do to the mother. He is not holding her and torturing her with a hot iron stake. He is not killing her. There are ppl in abject poverty living in 3rd world countries with families with 14 ppl and more. While their lives are miserable it seems, they still care for each other adn their families are still strong. And they don't abort. I've seen it myself and many of them are happy ppl, in fact, I've never seen someone who calls the road their home so happy.

Your giving materialism too much value, since thats what makes sense. If ur saying life and death that's stupid because giving birth does not kill the mother usually.

If it is known that it will, then sure, but asides from that I thknk the terms I put down are reasonable.

by **Tanya** Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:17 am

Nihil wrote:you obviously aren't reading them, I quote them to reestablish the subject and allow the reader to more easily access the information which I am talking about.

Also, you cannot love something you have never met, that is, a fetus, and you know, a lot of women could say that they are closer to an abortion than you and that they believe in it.

An innocent life denotes the ability of a life to interact and to choose its actions in an innocent manner. A fetus CANNOT DO ANY OF THOSE.

Yes I can love, I did, that's what stopped me. Women believe in abortions, it does exist and as I said we can do with our bodies everything we want. I know in real life those who did it and now they regret for the rest of their lives, because they loved it too, and you speak exactly same as my partner did once, but his reasons were just to get rid off it since he didn't want to take responsibility, what is your reason, did you do the same? You are male you will never understand connection between mother and her child, you said I cannot love what I never met, and I did, that's where you fail to understand.

by **SouLCasT** Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:06 pm

You see Nihil, here is your problem. You contradict SEVERAL people (Not including me, ofc) which have had experience in this domain, and yet sustain the fact that YOU are right.

You said that no one can love a "fetus", well Pto and Tanya loved they're kids before they were born.
And saying that a fetus isn't alive, is pure bs.

And believe me, in the case of the old man, if he is not a selfish kind of guy, he would rather kill himself than let you save him instead of the baby/fetus.

by Nihil Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:22 pm

What I mean by that statement, is that we cannot love something we have not met, but, if you think about it: IF WE DIDN'T LOVE THE FETUS, where would we be? Extinct! lulz.

also, what don't you guys understand about killing an unthinking thing? It is not like you guys have ever met say, fetus x. And if that women wants to advance the living status of her children and her career, having another child, which, btw, over half of women getting abortions say they have used protection, would not help her and it is her body and her choice to kill the fetus, because, after all, the fetus can't think feel or anything, so its not like you are killing an actual person.

by **Tanya** Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:06 pm

As SoulCast said before if you kill a fetus today then tomorrow the world has one person less, because you kill an actual person, but for you fetus is only that. You still didn't say why are you trying to prove your wrongness, what are the reasons to make you keep pushing, telling me opposite of what I lived through and I know very well. World would be better place if there would be more people like Ptolemy :-)

by **dandaman7** Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:11 pm

^Lol at last sentence, but yeah true.
Nihil, you are arguing with someone here who has experience with the topic (Tanya) and still don't see the other side?

by **Aureus** Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:13 pm

Tanya wrote:As SoulCast said before if you kill a fetus today then tomorrow the world has one person less

That's actually a good thing because of our over populating species =)

by **dandaman7** Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:23 pm

So why don't we just kill a few people anyway? Stop the world from overpopulating

by **Ptolemy** Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:23 pm

Master CoG wrote:
Tanya wrote:As SoulCast said before if you kill a fetus today then tomorrow the world has one person less
That's actually a good thing because of our over populating species =)

CoG, if you truly believe that then why are you contributing to the overpopulation problem?

by Nihil Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:32 pm

Tanya wrote:As SoulCast said before if you kill a fetus today then tomorrow the world has one person less, because you kill an actual person, but for you fetus is only that. You still didn't say why are you trying to prove your wrongness, what are the reasons to make you keep pushing, telling me opposite of what I lived through and I know very well. World would be better place if there would be more people like Ptolemy :-)

You english isn't very coherent but I can try to answer your question. First off, I'm not trying to prove my wrongness, I'm trying to prove my rightness, I can't believe those are words. I'm not telling you the opposite of what you lived through, I'm simply explaining it as a perfunctory biological reaction to pregnancy, tell me, what reason would you have to love a son who grew up to be a murderer? Most parents would say, "because he/she is my son/daughter." biological. The victims wouldn't love that person.

How about I put it this way, you shouldn't infringe upon what others do, it doesn't harm anything. Before you jump, it harms a fetus, that is potential life, I agree, but I don't agree that it is as precious as actual life. Here is why: Actual life can express feelings, emotions, and has memories and has relations, that to me, is why we are what we call "humanity" with the connotation of benevolence.

Once a person has tasted life, they are immediately entitled to it. But as long as they cannot taste life [a fetus], that is, think, feel, have emotions or connections, they are a developing fetus, that is unique, but is up to their parents to decide whether they are ready, emotionally, physically, or, possibly, even want a child.

Ptolemy, he didn't choose to, just like a Fetus doesn't choose to live, it just does as a result of a chemical reaction.

by **Ptolemy** Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:53 pm

Nihil wrote:
Tanya wrote:As SoulCast said before if you kill a fetus today then tomorrow the world has one person less, because you kill an actual person, but for you fetus is only that. You still didn't say why are you trying to prove your wrongness, what are the reasons to make you keep pushing, telling me opposite of what I lived through and I know very well. World would be better place if there would be more people like Ptolemy :-)

You english isn't very coherent but I can try to answer your question. First off, I'm not trying to prove my wrongness, I'm trying to prove my rightness, I can't believe those are words. I'm not telling you the opposite of what you lived through, I'm simply explaining it as a perfunctory biological reaction to pregnancy, tell me, what reason would you have to love a son who grew up to be a murderer? Most parents would say, "because he/she is my son/daughter." biological. The victims wouldn't love that person.

How about I put it this way, you shouldn't infringe upon what others do, it doesn't harm anything. Before you jump, it harms a fetus, that is potential life, I agree, but I don't agree that it is as precious as actual life. Here is why: Actual life can express feelings, emotions, and has memories and has relations, that to me, is why we are what we call "humanity" with the connotation of benevolence.

Once a person has tasted life, they are immediately entitled to it. But as long as they cannot taste life [a fetus], that is, think, feel, have emotions or connections, they are a developing fetus, that is unique, but is up to their parents to decide whether they are ready, emotionally, physically, or, possibly, even want a child.

Ptolemy, he didn't choose to, just like a Fetus doesn't choose to live, it just does as a result of a chemical reaction.

This may earn me an infraction. If it does... So be it. You are one sad little man...

I have added you to my ignore list. I wash my hands of you...

by **SouLCasT** Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:54 pm

When 5 people tell you that ur drunk you should go to sleep.

It's the same case with you. You have several people stating the SAME issue, yet you alone think that you are better, and is always right. What you fail to see is that is YOUR opinion, as much as you try, we will still see a fetus as A HUMAN BEING (see I said it again) A HUMAN BEING, while you see it the same as what comes out of ur ass, residue...

by **Tanya** Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:58 pm

Will fetus become assassin or a teacher is unclear, will it become a person, a human is what is clear. You cannot lecture me about this, besides I had experience I read a lot of books and magazines. I am rising my son in best way I can, if I find out that he becomes a criminal it will be right to be judged to him based on crimes that he made, but I cannot neither can you judge him as criminal while he is still unborn lol, you are even more silly then I thought :-), I did research on you, I asked around and now I understand your reactions here. I know that deep inside, or maybe deep deep inside you agree with us, if you still don't I truly feel sorry for you, Nihil.

by **SouLCasT** Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:09 pm

Now now, no need for calling names. It's his opinion, even tho it doesn't have the right course for us. Maybe he'll understand one day that he can't be right all the time.

by **Ptolemy** Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:11 pm

not calling name i to am voicing an opinion.

by **Aureus** Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:21 pm

Ptolemy wrote:
Master CoG wrote:
Tanya wrote:As SoulCast said before if you kill a fetus today then tomorrow the world has one person less
That's actually a good thing because of our over populating species =)

CoG, if you truly believe that then why are you contributing to the overpopulation problem?

I alrdy exist and actually kno that i'm alive unlike a fetus

by **Ptolemy** Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:35 pm

but you exist. if you believe the earth is over populated you should either begin eliminating those around you or your self...

I agree there are places that are over populated how ever, there is still more of this world that is sparsely populated to the extreme. some of that land is used for production of food but there is lots more that could be habitable.

That is a different topic tho

by **Dray The Fingerless** Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:53 pm

Extreme wealthiness and disproportioned land taking and usage is what causes overpopulation. Humanity isnt overcrowding the world. We are overcrowding ourselves. Also, i do believe Nihil has his opinion, as we have ours. I dont think either side will have irrefutable arguments to convince the other, only personal experience can change an opinion in this.

by **Ptolemy** Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:38 pm

that i agree with

by Nihil Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:39 pm

SouLCasT wrote:When 5 people tell you that ur drunk you should go to sleep.

It's the same case with you. You have several people stating the SAME issue, yet you alone think that you are better, and is always right. What you fail to see is that is YOUR opinion, as much as you try, we will still see a fetus as A HUMAN BEING (see I said it again) A HUMAN BEING, while you see it the same as what comes out of ur ass, residue...

I don't think I'm better, I think I'm right, just like you guys do, so I'm trying to dictate my opinion in a way that it seems plausible to you, make no mistake, it is my opinion still, just in different words. I'm trying to get to a point where you understand it, because, in my view, once you comprehend it, you will recognize why I believe that it is a better alternative. Thats not to say that I don't understand your point of view, I've wrestled with these issues on my own time, however, even though I do understand your perspective, I politely disagree and have been trying to engage in discourse regarding it. Also, just because more people are on one side, does that make them right? If that is your definition of right, then I suppose it works for you, but not for me.

I don't see a fetus as residual matter of any type. I see it as the developing stages prerequisite to being a human. But in a broader sense, though the biological data is there, the fetus isn't really 'alive' or 'human' both in the same metaphysical sense. Perquisites of humanity include understanding beyond most other mammalians' grasp, that metaphysical sense that I'm talking about, simply put, is that a fetus, though it is biologically human, does not feel life or death, being that it has neither felt life or death and it never will if it is aborted. Regularly, we as humans commit a greater crime that does not need metaphysical explanation: we kill our planet, we abandon our fellow, struggling, citizens to the whimsy of the free-market, we subject other struggling nations to humanitarian violations, poor working conditions, wages, and lives, all in the name of capitalism and the enrichment of our own lives, truly, at their own expense. We cut our military spending, we could feed the starving of Africa. But we don't. You tell me, is it better to die or live in, say, possibly Rwanda or Darfur region of Sudan? I don't mean to shift the attention, but those are acceptable comparisons, because they underline the question, should we care about those alive and suffering or those that cannot suffer?

Tanya wrote:Will fetus become assassin or a teacher is unclear, will it become a person, a human is what is clear. You cannot lecture me about this, besides I had experience I read a lot of books and magazines. I am rising my son in best way I can, if I find out that he becomes a criminal it will be right to be judged to him based on crimes that he made, but I cannot neither can you judge him as criminal while he is still unborn lol, you are even more silly then I thought :-), I did research on you, I asked around and now I understand your reactions here. I know that deep inside, or maybe deep deep inside you agree with us, if you still don't I truly feel sorry for you, Nihil.

You basically pointed out what I said. That we should judge your son, if he is a criminal, on the crimes he commits. But, you also said that you loved your son before you met him, if everyone on earth was your son would you love them? It's hard to wrap your head around this, but, listen, if you say you love your son before you met him, then that would denote loving everyone, not matter their future, you could say then, if you had given birth to Osama bin Laden, that you would love him, because, just like your son, you couldn't have predicted his future. And you just contradicted yourself, I see, by saying that I cannot judge him if he is unborn, well whoopdefuckingdoo, then neither can you love him if he is unborn. I feel sorry for you, because around half of all the millions of abortions each year take place unsafely, and you put all those women, who I might add, to this in countries where it is illegal to get an abortion, at supreme risk of dying from infection or having a disability!

If to live is to have and have had to think, feel, express, remember, and have connections to people and to have had connections to people, who do you care about more? The living or the dead? The unsafe abortion or the fetus?

by **dandaman7** Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:53 pm

Didn't really read that except for the Tanya part. She didn't love him before he was born BECAUSE she didn't know him, but because she conceived him. If she gave birth to everyone on the world and they had not done too much evil, I think the answer would be a yes, that she does love them.
As for the rest....
Abortion? or No Abortion? - Page 13 Didntread

Abortion? or No Abortion? - Page 13 Didntread

Abortion? or No Abortion? - Page 13 Moz-screenshot

Abortion? or No Abortion? - Page 13 Moz-screenshot-1

Abortion? or No Abortion? - Page 13 Moz-screenshot-2

Abortion? or No Abortion? - Page 13 Moz-screenshot-3

by Nihil Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:57 pm

seriously how can we have a debate if you don't read it all >.<

by **dandaman7** Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:28 pm

Fine, if you take the stance that rape is the only exception, then abortions are acceptable and it doesn't have to be an unsafe one. If you are talking abortions for just having fun unprotected sex, then go ahead and have an unsafe abortion, might teach you a lesson. The stance of 'they are gonna do it anyway' is not that great of one. Think if lawmakers decided 'People are going to steal anyway, let's just make it legal.'
If you saw what Ara said and a fetus's heart is beating at just 20 days, how is it that you can say that a fetus isn't living?
I enjoy life, if I lived in a very poor area, which I have, I would still be very happy with my existence. Nihil, just curious, have you ever met someone who has had an abortion?
Not sure if you were saying that you can't love someone that doesn't exist, but if you were, I still love certain dead relatives.
Just to be sure, are we arguing about the legality or the morality of abortion?
I noticed that you said that you said your mother wouldn't have an abortion. I hope that your mother loves you and the way that you are. I think a better question to ask would be if she was raped before she was born, knowing the person that you are today could exist and abortion was available to her, would she have it?

by Nihil Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:59 pm

We are arguing about the legality and morality of abortion.

Don't think that women want to have an abortion, they use protection, but, sometimes, things happen, those 99% effective stuff, well, they are 1% and some other things aren't even 99% effective.

Also, if you think you can argue about the morality of abortion and then say "go have an unsafe abortion it might teach you a lesson" then you are conflicted inside, you can't morally accept the death of another who had an unsafe abortion, which half of them are, which are in countries where abortions are illegal!

Its fucking going to happen, whether you like it or not. ONLY THING that you can change is how safe it is.

Also, like I thought, people are already missing the metaphysical implications and EXPLICIT LIBERTIES THAT I WROTE OUT IN THE WORD ALIVE

Stealing and abortions are different, stealing is universally disapproved of and defeats the purpose of our social welfare state.

So you think that people who live through genocides enjoy life?

You can love dead relatives because they WERE, they FELT, they IMPACTED YOUR LIFE, and they CREATED MEMORIES and you KNEW THEM, the fetus has NONE OF THOSE THINGS

I don't quite understand the last paragraph, but, I'll presume that you meant to ask was if my mother was raped would she abort, presumably, me.

My told me, when we discussed this several years ago that abortion wasn't for her, but she did not want to limit it for others. That being said, how could I have said that I wanted to be aborted, if I was, well, who cares, NO ONE WOULD KNOW ME and I WOULDN'T HAVE FELT IT and, technically, I wouldn't have to worry about anything, because, if you are some kind of 'Religion of Salvation' person, I would go straight to your paradise, if you are an atheist, then I would just skip life, and nothing would happen or change, I wouldn't feel, and I wouldn't miss anything because I WOULD HAVE NEVER KNOWN THOSE THINGS! ITS SO SIMPLE!

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