Muslim mosque near 9-11 site

From a analogical point of view, America's reaction makes sense, but applied into today's world views and morals, it doesnt fit and it was not the best reaction to have. Sure it has an explanation, but that doesnt convey a justification along with it.

As for the influence, i agree with what your saying, but you are not telling me yet the relationship the western society structure has to do with the multi culturing phenomena of the last decades. Hitler and the Nazi occupation, the genocides and horrors of the world war. That helped Europe in unity, seeing all the horrible things we humans can do, it opens eyes. And dont forget in that time, America wasnt that multi cultured Champ. You didnt see Indian taxi drivers, pakistani shops, black rappers and singers(ok some) going around New York in the 40s and 50s. WHEN it comes to multi cultural cosmopolitan cities and areas, i dont think America was pioneer alone, because this evolution happened parallel with the rest of the world. The general western state of mind, culture, and way of living came a lot influenced from america, but the phenomena of globalization was something aside from that.

I love these little discussions...

you both have a very unique view point.

Back to the Mosque question for a moment. the building that that will be torn down is the only building on that street and in that area that was not declared a historic site. Can any of you tell me why? It took more damage from aircraft debris that any of the buildings around it why would it not qualify for that protection?

Well, that has nothing to do with the center. Go ask G.W.B's people about 9 years back or so.

Not this again.....

My personal view on this is simple. Make the area down there so that all major religions have an area. If that happens then I think it'll show how united we can be in the midst of a disaster. At the same time, it's not wise to put just a single one down there as you'll get this reaction no matter which single one you put.

There are already all kinds of churches in Manhattan Aard.

Yeah but until there's a Muslim Mosque, a Chrsitian Church, a Jewish Synagogue, and a Budhist Temple, the Arguing is going to continue, and each side will have semi-logical point to it.

You mean they are gonna resort to emotionality issues. Wich in a basic rights discussion, is useless. therefore, illogical. And Aard, its manhattan. I thik its one of the few places in America where you WILL find all those. ITS. MANHATTAN.

Yes Manhattan, but not the 911 site which makes a big difference to some people.

Can someone show me just where exactly hes gonna build this shit, in a map? All ive heard is the word NEAR.

3-4 blocks away

thats NEW YORK blocks too, right?

aye, shouldn't even be able to see the towers or vice-versa

thats not true nihil. those towers were fucking big.

I wouldn't think you would be able to see it, especially since there rae other buildings in teh way

Dray The Fingerless wrote:From a analogical point of view, America's reaction makes sense, but applied into today's world views and morals, it doesnt fit and it was not the best reaction to have. Sure it has an explanation, but that doesnt convey a justification along with it.

As for the influence, i agree with what your saying, but you are not telling me yet the relationship the western society structure has to do with the multi culturing phenomena of the last decades. Hitler and the Nazi occupation, the genocides and horrors of the world war. That helped Europe in unity, seeing all the horrible things we humans can do, it opens eyes. And dont forget in that time, America wasnt that multi cultured Champ. You didnt see Indian taxi drivers, pakistani shops, black rappers and singers(ok some) going around New York in the 40s and 50s. WHEN it comes to multi cultural cosmopolitan cities and areas, i dont think America was pioneer alone, because this evolution happened parallel with the rest of the world. The general western state of mind, culture, and way of living came a lot influenced from america, but the phenomena of globalization was something aside from that.

Not so sure about your first point. I still think the victory mosque is a slap to the face and the protesters have every right to scream as loud as they want and righteously so.

As for the second point, the world wars brought American soldiers and politics to Europe. These brought in new ideas and an interchange of what is good in American society. I read some stuff on this a very long time ago but I will be damned if I can recall any authors or titles. And the very struggle of black americans in the USA set a precedence for the rest of the world, enabling more freedom and diversity in other nations, among other precedents the US has set. Whatever refinement to the formula Europeans may have contributed ( I love how empowering saying European is, since if I specify countries each individual country has really done little in the big picture but only by uniting europe can you start seeing world changing influence), it was the USA who came up with the original recipe.

That is an entirely different discussion however.

Aardvark wrote:Not this again.....

My personal view on this is simple. Make the area down there so that all major religions have an area. If that happens then I think it'll show how united we can be in the midst of a disaster. At the same time, it's not wise to put just a single one down there as you'll get this reaction no matter which single one you put.

I agree, that or make it a public park area of sorts where only designated businesses may rebuild so that NO religions can build a holy site in the area.

Aardvark wrote:Yeah but until there's a Muslim Mosque, a Chrsitian Church, a Jewish Synagogue, and a Budhist Temple, the Arguing is going to continue, and each side will have semi-logical point to it.

I highlighted the beauty of this whole debate.

Nihil wrote:aye, shouldn't even be able to see the towers or vice-versa

Actually the whole point of anti-mosque people is that the victory mosque HAS to overlook the site. It will be in clear view of ground zero once it is built and will overlook the "conquest".

oh how beautiul poetic artistic symbolism americans have...its almost tear eye. the conquest. seriously.

i dont think it can overlook it from there thou. unles its in the top penthouse floor.

Its actually standard practice for Islam when it has achieved a victory. Much like the Romans built arches. Much like Cordoba was built in Spain... etc etc. You are really now just speaking out of ignorance to label that an American term.

Champion wrote:Its actually standard practice for Islam when it has achieved a victory. Much like the Romans built arches. Much like Cordoba was built in Spain... etc etc. You are really now just speaking out of ignorance to label that an American term.

where did i EVER say it was an american term? was just thinking how ridiculously paranoid it is to call it a muslim conquest. Dist would snap(prolly will if he reads it) by hearing people say such things lol. the conquest.

Well to radicals that is what it is. They have achieved more than they ever dreamed of, America with its guard up but of course, no racial profiling. America in fear of the next attack. America responding in a hostile fashion lowering world opinion of them. Gas prices rising. Islamaphobia (and all the thousands of converts who join out of fear). Etc etc etc. To me that is a much bigger victory than any toppling of a tyrant in a far away land. They have turned a public into one which was indifferent towards Islam to one which now has a love/hate relationship with it. They got everything they wanted and more (speaking of the radicals). That is a conquest.

And stop bringing up Disturbed. If he wants to voice an opinion here he can, and either way I am playing devils advocate for the most part. Thats what I tend to do in the Rancor Pit.

Your the only one who can lol, i normally shred to pieces the other ones.

I say Dist because he is my character representing the average muslim, you know, driving cabs, goin to mosques, hating them radicals. I mean, im pretty sure americans in general arent proud of the KKK are they? This is their KKK. Muslim religion was pretty big before the attacks too Champ, sure youll see people joining out of fear but....hardly a victorious number. but oh well, to them, i guess one person joining is a victory already. And they were really liucky too. New York has a fare share of muslims. Imagine they hit the Trade Center in a day where it was particularly filled with muslims? BACKFIRE. And those radicals....getting killed by the hundreds in the afghanistan and iraqi wars, being chased down everywhere in the world...I mean, they basically have everyones eyes on them. This is more of a case of being in such a shitty situation, that all they can do is look at the lil positive things they have. Bin Laden was fucking rich man, and now hes living in some fucking cave. He had so much wealth and luxury, and look at him now. It all depends on the point of view. Victory or Defeat.