Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
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Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
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Champion- Founder
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Re: Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
Let it go up. I'm all for religious tolerance cuz I think the people against putting it up are just as crazy. (The fanatics, not the I disagree ppl)
Just check where the funding is coming from
Just check where the funding is coming from
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Re: Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
9/11 was made by terrorists first, muslims second. If they had been catholic, would they be complaining about a church being built NEAR, not ON, NEAR, Ground Zero? To wich i ask, how far can you go until NEAR stops being NEAR. 100 meters? a kilometer? Btw, this guy needs to learn how to convey emotions. His sarcasm is hard to read sometimes...AND i like how he calls muslims violent people since the Ruskies invaded their land.....the key word being INVADED. ive yet to see muslim countries in the news who arent being opressed or invaded.
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Re: Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
I kinda agree with his points though. The mosque is sort of a poke in the eye to the more hard nosed Americans. I also agree on the political correctness of the one way street Islam gets when it comes to "respect". I just dont think this is the right platform to make this sort of political statement.
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Re: Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
There's no one to blame than big fat Russia and big fat America, with a little help of Mr Saddam and Mr Ahmadenijad. He said it himself, since the Ruskies invaded them. All that the Western society has shown the Orient is oppression and violence. You just make them scared for decades, and of course, their culture becomes paranoid. I think this is a perfect example of that old saying. "You lie in the bed you made" Fortunately, lately, capitalism and communication is slowly reducing their extreme fear of the west. Now you just need to get the fuck out of Iraq.
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Re: Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
I agree the foreign occupation and incursion from the west and russia has caused a lot of resentment in the Islamic world, but regardless, this is about US soil and US sovereignty. So you think America should just allow this obvious radical to build this victory mosque?
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Re: Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
obvious radical?
and yes, i agree. its the land of opportunity and freedom isnt it? the land that says in every fuckin radio in the morning to breathe the nice free air of america, and make love to that big bozom that is america, and cry every night in your bed of happiness for being in america, the land of freedom, by god that shit is annoying. country is made of so many immigrants, born from immigrants. this fucking paranoia with muslims has to stop. sure they are violent, but so are irish people and you dont go probing every irish person;s arse do you? danger comes from everywhere, not just mr. mohammed. so you got hit in your own country...boo hoo. look at the balcans, better, look at france. those guys have been butt fucked thru their whole history more times than champ hires a tranny. and they dont kick out every german and british they see.
TL;DR
IF YOU GIVE HATE, YOU RECEIVE HATE.
and yes, i agree. its the land of opportunity and freedom isnt it? the land that says in every fuckin radio in the morning to breathe the nice free air of america, and make love to that big bozom that is america, and cry every night in your bed of happiness for being in america, the land of freedom, by god that shit is annoying. country is made of so many immigrants, born from immigrants. this fucking paranoia with muslims has to stop. sure they are violent, but so are irish people and you dont go probing every irish person;s arse do you? danger comes from everywhere, not just mr. mohammed. so you got hit in your own country...boo hoo. look at the balcans, better, look at france. those guys have been butt fucked thru their whole history more times than champ hires a tranny. and they dont kick out every german and british they see.
TL;DR
IF YOU GIVE HATE, YOU RECEIVE HATE.
Last edited by Dray The Fingerless on Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:07 am; edited 1 time in total
Dray The Fingerless- Senate Representative
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Re: Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
If we go against it, there's a chance of the radical getting his way. If we say, "great! come on in! religious tolerance is so great" we win either way
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Re: Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
Dray The Fingerless wrote:obvious radical?
and yes, i agree. its the land of opportunity and freedom isnt it? the land that says in every fuckin radio in the morning to breathe the nice free air of america, and make love to that big bozom that is america, and cry every night in your bed of happiness for being in america, the land of freedom, by god that shit is annoying. country is made of so many immigrants, born from immigrants. this fucking paranoia with muslims has to stop. sure they are violent, but so are irish people and you dont go probing every irish person;s arse do you? danger comes from everywhere, not just mr. mohammed. so you got hit in your own country...boo hoo. look at the balcans, better, look at france. those guys have been butt fucked thru their whole history more times than champ hires a tranny. and they dont kick out every german and british they see.
TL;DR
IF YOU GIVE HATE, YOU RECEIVE HATE.
The cleric financing the mosque just 5 years ago was delivering food or something, and now he owns duplexes and is buying this prime manhatten location for a mosque. On top of that, some politicians even asked if he would relocate, all talks failed because the whole point of the mosque being there is to overlook the site of 9-11. To me that makes him a radical since he is basically condoning the destruction of civilian targets by radicals.
How would you like it if Spanish radicals blew up your parliment in Portugal, then 7 years later wanted to erect a monument to Spain overlooking the site? You are no nationalist, but everyone has a sense of pride. I can care less to be honest about all nationalism, but I find it laughable at the amount of Americans who are so gullible, because one thing the western american culture has bred is open arms for foreigners. The problem is, the very foreigners you are hugging also harbor the people trying to kill you.
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Re: Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
By the way I am mostly playing devils advocate here in a way because this is one of those rare moral issues where you can go either way and have some right.
Watch:
Btw this guy is British not American.
Watch:
Btw this guy is British not American.
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Re: Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
there is no legal basis to prevent them from building that mosque...
That being said, just because you can do something does not mean you should.
This move is divisive and insensitive.
That being said, just because you can do something does not mean you should.
This move is divisive and insensitive.
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Re: Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
The building of this mosque is a total slap in the face and offends me greatly. Muslims have built mosques where they have achieved victory over enemies and that's exactly how I feel this is. A total slap in the face to America and the lives of everyone who died in 9/11.
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Re: Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
Champion wrote:Dray The Fingerless wrote:obvious radical?
and yes, i agree. its the land of opportunity and freedom isnt it? the land that says in every fuckin radio in the morning to breathe the nice free air of america, and make love to that big bozom that is america, and cry every night in your bed of happiness for being in america, the land of freedom, by god that shit is annoying. country is made of so many immigrants, born from immigrants. this fucking paranoia with muslims has to stop. sure they are violent, but so are irish people and you dont go probing every irish person;s arse do you? danger comes from everywhere, not just mr. mohammed. so you got hit in your own country...boo hoo. look at the balcans, better, look at france. those guys have been butt fucked thru their whole history more times than champ hires a tranny. and they dont kick out every german and british they see.
TL;DR
IF YOU GIVE HATE, YOU RECEIVE HATE.
The cleric financing the mosque just 5 years ago was delivering food or something, and now he owns duplexes and is buying this prime manhatten location for a mosque. On top of that, some politicians even asked if he would relocate, all talks failed because the whole point of the mosque being there is to overlook the site of 9-11. To me that makes him a radical since he is basically condoning the destruction of civilian targets by radicals.
How would you like it if Spanish radicals blew up your parliment in Portugal, then 7 years later wanted to erect a monument to Spain overlooking the site? You are no nationalist, but everyone has a sense of pride. I can care less to be honest about all nationalism, but I find it laughable at the amount of Americans who are so gullible, because one thing the western american culture has bred is open arms for foreigners. The problem is, the very foreigners you are hugging also harbor the people trying to kill you.
Well think about it Champ. Isnt it insulting that just because hes trying to build a mosque near 9/11, hes insulting them? Or are they insulting him, by indirectly calling him a terrorist? The whole problem has to do with the general idea that muslims did 9/11, wich they did, the terrorists were muslims and their cause is muslim, but what probably happened is that this man felt insulted that he cant build a mosque in manhattan just because of proximity to ground zero, PROXIMITY, and thus, he stood his ground and his beliefs that this is completely fair, and all that people are doing is overreacting, wich they are, like Mr Aragorn, preaching a slap in the face, when his taxes go to paying military in Iraq into fucking up that whole country. The talks failed because he felt insulted indeed. Hes just trying to build a mosk in Manhattan, wich is what i guess is being too close. So just because hes standing ground and not letting himself be bullied out, people feel he is 'insulting' them.
Who is the real bad person here? Americans for associating a mosque to terrorism? Or a man who is building a mosque in the same island a bunch of muslim extremists killed a lot of people? And i dont feel confused why people should feel insulted. I completely understand WHY they have that feeling. I just think they have it out of misjudgement, not because they are right. But if they stopped viewing it as someone trying to insult them, and started viewing it just as A FUCKING MAN TRYING TO BUILD A CHURCH IN MANHATTAN ISLAND, maybe, just fucking maybe, this whole thing wouldnt be such a big deal.
You all judging this man thinking his intentions are bad, thus being prejudice, thus insulting him, thus making him stand his ground against the insult.
Heres another way to view it.
1.Take the american flag out of your ass.
2.See with your own eyes the epithomy of human tolerance. Americans are worldwide known for being a bunch of asshole xenophobic idiots. Wich they are in abundance. Sadly
3.Imagine how much wrong you can proove the world by allowing less than a decade after, the construction of a muslim praying site, a few minutes away from the place where a few men, muslim radicals, destroyed a couple thousand lives. Show forgiveness and open arms. Believe me, the last thing muslims want, is more bullshit on them. They just wanna pray. So is there a better image of human understanding and tolerance, than embracing your 'former enemy'? Isnt this the best way to shut up everyone, including Americans themselves, and say 'Hey, no hard feelings, we're all brothers. We dont mind what race or religion you from'. Hell you did it with Russia...so its not like something new to you.
Dray The Fingerless- Senate Representative
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Re: Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
Dray I got nothing to do with this, I am looking at this from a purely logical and unbiased viewpoint. I am not a nationalist, and I can care less where I live in this world so long as I am with my loved ones and I can at least arm myself to kill some animals to eat.
That said, what this Imam is doing is ramming Islam down most Americans throats, because lets face the reality, I live over here and anti-islam is gaining ground and to be honest, as long as I can remember this country has been xenophobic towards anything that is not pale or brown in skin tone. If this Imam, who is supposed to be teaching a peaceful religion cared about any of that, or had any sensitivity towards humanity, he would have changed the location when it was offered to him. Not only that, but I have read articles stating many tenants had filed serious complaints and charges against him because of the way he ran his buildings. Now he wants to run a holy center?
I understand your viewpoint but the fact remains, most Americans view what happened at 9-11 as an Islamic radical attack, and thus anything associated with Islam is suspect. As I mentioned earlier, Moslums harbor terrorists, willingly or not. Its a part of the culture. PERIOD. Just as crusaders were a part of western european culture, etc etc. A person who is logical minded would never judge someone based on outward appearance alone. There are moslums who stand out against these sorts, and they are to be applauded for their bravery. In fact, more moslums than ever are speaking out against this mosque being built in this area, and I applaud them. I dont think it takes more than a hair of sensitivity to see why any spiritual, human minded individual would realize the implications involved in building a victory mosque over the 9-11 site, and even if he did not, why would he continue after such an uproar? Why not show how humble and peaceful Islam is instead of continuing to insult half of a confused and scared nation? What a bully.
Every thing is wrong about this, but most people are too pussy to speak out. I can care less to be honest in the end, I am all about family and loved ones, fuck nationalities and cultures. We are all humans and if I had my way, we would end this savagery taking place in this world with all haste.
And PS, tone down the anti american hate speech.. its borderline flame baiting towards aragorn and ptolemy who are patriots. If you cannot respect them enough to do that I will infract you next time for flame baiting.
That said, what this Imam is doing is ramming Islam down most Americans throats, because lets face the reality, I live over here and anti-islam is gaining ground and to be honest, as long as I can remember this country has been xenophobic towards anything that is not pale or brown in skin tone. If this Imam, who is supposed to be teaching a peaceful religion cared about any of that, or had any sensitivity towards humanity, he would have changed the location when it was offered to him. Not only that, but I have read articles stating many tenants had filed serious complaints and charges against him because of the way he ran his buildings. Now he wants to run a holy center?
I understand your viewpoint but the fact remains, most Americans view what happened at 9-11 as an Islamic radical attack, and thus anything associated with Islam is suspect. As I mentioned earlier, Moslums harbor terrorists, willingly or not. Its a part of the culture. PERIOD. Just as crusaders were a part of western european culture, etc etc. A person who is logical minded would never judge someone based on outward appearance alone. There are moslums who stand out against these sorts, and they are to be applauded for their bravery. In fact, more moslums than ever are speaking out against this mosque being built in this area, and I applaud them. I dont think it takes more than a hair of sensitivity to see why any spiritual, human minded individual would realize the implications involved in building a victory mosque over the 9-11 site, and even if he did not, why would he continue after such an uproar? Why not show how humble and peaceful Islam is instead of continuing to insult half of a confused and scared nation? What a bully.
Every thing is wrong about this, but most people are too pussy to speak out. I can care less to be honest in the end, I am all about family and loved ones, fuck nationalities and cultures. We are all humans and if I had my way, we would end this savagery taking place in this world with all haste.
And PS, tone down the anti american hate speech.. its borderline flame baiting towards aragorn and ptolemy who are patriots. If you cannot respect them enough to do that I will infract you next time for flame baiting.
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Re: Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
Wasnt speaking to you, but for starters, tenants are complaining bitches all the time, and then, the way people are viewing this as insult is an insult itself. im not speaking towards you directly, i know your feelings about this crap, im just saying, everyone calls america xenophobes. The world view of america is that one, flamebaiting or not. Try to show tolerance, extreme tolerance, this time, and instead of caring about this, let it go.
Ara for example feels insulted because he thinks this is a muslim statement that they fucked america in the ass. That is at the same time, an extremely cocky view of yourself, an extremely denegrating view to muslim people who were shocked as he was to see the towers fall, and a unvalid view, why? Remember the crusades? To this day, in Jerusalem, there is a christian church. People forget this, but that church, supposedly built on top of Jesus grave, existed in Jerusalem in symbiosis with the jewish and muslim holy places in that city as well. That church has been open for almost 2 millennia, and it has survived every war and raging battles that jerusalem has gone thru. During the Crusades, the starter point of muslim oppression by the western world, The city of Jerusalem was kept open, DESPITE OF THE HOLY WAR BEING WAGED UPON THE MUSLIMS RULING THAT LAND. thats right, during a christian-muslim war, they let people go into the city and to the church, they guarded the church, as they guarded the jewish and muslim praying sites. They protected an object of extreme importance that belong to the very enemy that was waging war against them, and was letting their people come and use that object. And for almost 2 millennia, that fucking church is STILL guarded by a MUSLIM FAMILY. i rest my case.
Ara for example feels insulted because he thinks this is a muslim statement that they fucked america in the ass. That is at the same time, an extremely cocky view of yourself, an extremely denegrating view to muslim people who were shocked as he was to see the towers fall, and a unvalid view, why? Remember the crusades? To this day, in Jerusalem, there is a christian church. People forget this, but that church, supposedly built on top of Jesus grave, existed in Jerusalem in symbiosis with the jewish and muslim holy places in that city as well. That church has been open for almost 2 millennia, and it has survived every war and raging battles that jerusalem has gone thru. During the Crusades, the starter point of muslim oppression by the western world, The city of Jerusalem was kept open, DESPITE OF THE HOLY WAR BEING WAGED UPON THE MUSLIMS RULING THAT LAND. thats right, during a christian-muslim war, they let people go into the city and to the church, they guarded the church, as they guarded the jewish and muslim praying sites. They protected an object of extreme importance that belong to the very enemy that was waging war against them, and was letting their people come and use that object. And for almost 2 millennia, that fucking church is STILL guarded by a MUSLIM FAMILY. i rest my case.
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Re: Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
THEY SHOULD BUILD THE MOSQUE!
Otherwise, the "untrue" Muslims, the Terrorists, win
why should there be churches in Istanbul? Since Christians sacked the city?
Being against this mosque is pure ignorance, because, then, you group 9/11 Muslims in the same category as Dist.
Dist is not a 9/11 hijacker, he is a REAL Muslim. When I went to a Mosque for school, the lady said that those 9/11 hijackers WERE NOT real Muslims.
Grouping Dist with those 9/11 Hijackers is wrong, so anyone who does is a dick.
Otherwise, the "untrue" Muslims, the Terrorists, win
why should there be churches in Istanbul? Since Christians sacked the city?
Being against this mosque is pure ignorance, because, then, you group 9/11 Muslims in the same category as Dist.
Dist is not a 9/11 hijacker, he is a REAL Muslim. When I went to a Mosque for school, the lady said that those 9/11 hijackers WERE NOT real Muslims.
Grouping Dist with those 9/11 Hijackers is wrong, so anyone who does is a dick.
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Re: Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
Dray The Fingerless wrote:Wasnt speaking to you, but for starters, tenants are complaining bitches all the time, and then, the way people are viewing this as insult is an insult itself. im not speaking towards you directly, i know your feelings about this crap, im just saying, everyone calls america xenophobes. The world view of america is that one, flamebaiting or not. Try to show tolerance, extreme tolerance, this time, and instead of caring about this, let it go.
Ara for example feels insulted because he thinks this is a muslim statement that they fucked america in the ass. That is at the same time, an extremely cocky view of yourself, an extremely denegrating view to muslim people who were shocked as he was to see the towers fall, and a unvalid view, why? Remember the crusades? To this day, in Jerusalem, there is a christian church. People forget this, but that church, supposedly built on top of Jesus grave, existed in Jerusalem in symbiosis with the jewish and muslim holy places in that city as well. That church has been open for almost 2 millennia, and it has survived every war and raging battles that jerusalem has gone thru. During the Crusades, the starter point of muslim oppression by the western world, The city of Jerusalem was kept open, DESPITE OF THE HOLY WAR BEING WAGED UPON THE MUSLIMS RULING THAT LAND. thats right, during a christian-muslim war, they let people go into the city and to the church, they guarded the church, as they guarded the jewish and muslim praying sites. They protected an object of extreme importance that belong to the very enemy that was waging war against them, and was letting their people come and use that object. And for almost 2 millennia, that fucking church is STILL guarded by a MUSLIM FAMILY. i rest my case.
Are you fooling yourself? I saw videos of people cheering in the streets in some parts of the middle east when the towers fell, I've seen beheadings of westerners and journalists by Islamic radicals, and I have had candid talks with American Moslums who will even admit to the propaganda and hate machine some Islamic countries dish out towards the west and the US in particular, they have seen it with their own eyes visiting relatives over there. That does not mean it will incite hate in the average person, but I think when something like this, which is a 50/50 issue in my eyes, it will tip the culture against the side of the other merely because of the constant bombardment of hatred spewed from certain sources. The hate is in place.
The same goes in Europe. The media in Europe and in the UK in particular has been very anti-American for the past few years. What I don't understand is why you Europeans are so set on thinking Americans are so prideful and arrogant, you blame every one here for what a few politicians do with the absolute power they wield. What do you want Americans to do? Would you like us to start a civil war? Its an american tradition that a new culture submits itself to America. Irish, Germans, Mexicans, and others have come to this land to be a part of it, and when they do they need to realize that America is not about any one culture, you can wave your mexican flag and american flag, but the american one comes first. Thats what this Imam is not getting, and most people are missing. By putting this mosque in this location, he is basically raising the "islamic" flag over the american one. Thats how most Americans are taking it, from every culture because by doing so he is thus saying that the islamic flag is higher than ALL flags.
I think most Europeans miss that aspect about US culture and will never understand it. You can be a polack, or a jew, or a buddhist, or a slav here and have fierce pride in that. But America comes first because America is what unites all those cultures and without America we are just a bunch of tribes living on common ground... and that is a bomb waiting to go off.
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Re: Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
Nihil wrote:THEY SHOULD BUILD THE MOSQUE!
Otherwise, the "untrue" Muslims, the Terrorists, win
why should there be churches in Istanbul? Since Christians sacked the city?
Being against this mosque is pure ignorance, because, then, you group 9/11 Muslims in the same category as Dist.
Dist is not a 9/11 hijacker, he is a REAL Muslim. When I went to a Mosque for school, the lady said that those 9/11 hijackers WERE NOT real Muslims.
Grouping Dist with those 9/11 Hijackers is wrong, so anyone who does is a dick.
I am sure Dist has a sense of pride in America if he was raised here and can understand what I am saying in my above post. The problem is most of the world does not want Americans to feel that united pride of cultures,, be it jewish, muslim or otherwise. I would like to hear what he has to say on all this, and even if he took the other side of it I would take no offense. Like I said, I think this is a close 50/50 issue but as an American I think I have a slightly better understanding of the emotion involved by many here and why they are opposing it.
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Re: Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
Screw the rest of the world, lets be a place where we can tolerate freedom of speech!
this is not a mosque btw, just a community center.
Also, real estate is really hard to find in New York.
There shouldn't be any problem in this thing's placement, because, then, there shouldn't be a church in Istanbul, like so, I rest my case.
this is not a mosque btw, just a community center.
Also, real estate is really hard to find in New York.
There shouldn't be any problem in this thing's placement, because, then, there shouldn't be a church in Istanbul, like so, I rest my case.
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Re: Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
I guess being a jew, or a mexican, or a islamic in america ISNT being frowned upon? Because here seeing a muslim or a mexican is the same as seeing a fellow portuguese. Here in europe, you HAVE that multi cultural benefit Champ, and you can be darn PROUD of being whatever you are, AND we have the plus of NOT having the over patriotism america has, because we DO care about where we live, but we dont CRY for it, because unlike America, Europe has been taken, raped, flipped over, mixed around, changed places, butt fucked and every other possible fuck up in History. Because thru the history of europeans, they know oppression, genocide, destruction can come from everywhere, SPECIALLY from within our own nation, we have learned that loving your country too much is a bad thing as loving it too less. America is the land of opportunity? No, America is the land of dreams. There is no land of opportunity in this world. But America has the biggest ads out there, so thats where people go, just like you go to McDonalds because its the most advertised and widespread food place. London in particular is a beautiful place thou. Beautiful. The closest thing to London in America is New York. And i mean 'close' by a looooong landslide.
Hence why i love New York, because there is no other American city so full of cosmopolitan society, where everyone and everything is unidentifiable with a pattern. You see muslims, jews, mexicans, pakistani, indians, africans, and they all have one thing. They are immigrants and new yorkers, trying to make a living like everyone else. Just one thing ruins that whole thing, wich is this feeling of being obliged to love and cry for the American flag every morning. But what you have in one city, we have in the whole continent. WITHOUT the flag humping factor. And Champ, believe me, Europe doesnt care THAT much about America. As much as you think here in europe people insult you guys a lot, they dont. I am just doing so because in this discussion, i have to, since i have to talk about America, but outside of this discussion, no one cares, not even me. Because here, life is fucked, and people have more to worry about then some mosque being built on top of the American pride. Yes, the general idea of America is a bad one, but its also a forgetful one. It is a side note in our memories that says 'Meh'. Ask Iron, he lives in Poland. Ask him if he has any feeling for america other than 'Meh'.
And nihil is pretty right. Yall are gonna make Dist feel bad, as well as other people like Dist.
Hence why i love New York, because there is no other American city so full of cosmopolitan society, where everyone and everything is unidentifiable with a pattern. You see muslims, jews, mexicans, pakistani, indians, africans, and they all have one thing. They are immigrants and new yorkers, trying to make a living like everyone else. Just one thing ruins that whole thing, wich is this feeling of being obliged to love and cry for the American flag every morning. But what you have in one city, we have in the whole continent. WITHOUT the flag humping factor. And Champ, believe me, Europe doesnt care THAT much about America. As much as you think here in europe people insult you guys a lot, they dont. I am just doing so because in this discussion, i have to, since i have to talk about America, but outside of this discussion, no one cares, not even me. Because here, life is fucked, and people have more to worry about then some mosque being built on top of the American pride. Yes, the general idea of America is a bad one, but its also a forgetful one. It is a side note in our memories that says 'Meh'. Ask Iron, he lives in Poland. Ask him if he has any feeling for america other than 'Meh'.
And nihil is pretty right. Yall are gonna make Dist feel bad, as well as other people like Dist.
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Re: Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
Nihil wrote:Screw the rest of the world, lets be a place where we can tolerate freedom of speech!
this is not a mosque btw, just a community center.
Also, real estate is really hard to find in New York.
There shouldn't be any problem in this thing's placement, because, then, there shouldn't be a church in Istanbul, like so, I rest my case.
Its a mosque. The entire top 3 floors will serve as a mosque. What do you think mosques are anyway? They are community centers. Shows how misinformed you are.
Dray The Fingerless wrote:I guess being a jew, or a mexican, or a islamic in america ISNT being frowned upon? Because here seeing a muslim or a mexican is the same as seeing a fellow portuguese. Here in europe, you HAVE that multi cultural benefit Champ, and you can be darn PROUD of being whatever you are, AND we have the plus of NOT having the over patriotism america has, because we DO care about where we live, but we dont CRY for it, because unlike America, Europe has been taken, raped, flipped over, mixed around, changed places, butt fucked and every other possible fuck up in History. Because thru the history of europeans, they know oppression, genocide, destruction can come from everywhere, SPECIALLY from within our own nation, we have learned that loving your country too much is a bad thing as loving it too less. America is the land of opportunity? No, America is the land of dreams. There is no land of opportunity in this world. But America has the biggest ads out there, so thats where people go, just like you go to McDonalds because its the most advertised and widespread food place. London in particular is a beautiful place thou. Beautiful. The closest thing to London in America is New York. And i mean 'close' by a looooong landslide.
First off, while America has been hypocritical and maybe slower in some areas to fully accept other cultures, America taught Europe HOW to do that. You speak of European history, that was your dead fathers. This is now. The fact is, if Europe had ANY of the unity or sense of unitedness the USA has, Europe would be a single entity and not a smattering of warring states now finally coming to a rest. I think if anyone taught Europe how to be at peace its not warfare, it was the US. You guys have been slaughtering eachother for thousands of years and have not learned shit from it. Now the US comes along, sorts out a few almost genocidal conflicts and shows you how a bunch of cultures and people can live in peace and NOW you have stability in Europe.
Secondly, you are insane if you think you have the potential to gain more wealth anywhere else in the world if you are the average joe.
Times are changing things, but I think you are blinded by what the future MAY bring, and not what is here now. The fact remains, europe begat the USA who begat europe. If then europe begats the USA again so be it but that time is not now. Show me a united Europe as a single nation with a single constitution then I will be impressed. Until then you are blowing hot air.
Hence why i love New York, because there is no other American city so full of cosmopolitan society, where everyone and everything is unidentifiable with a pattern. You see muslims, jews, mexicans, pakistani, indians, africans, and they all have one thing. They are immigrants and new yorkers, trying to make a living like everyone else. Just one thing ruins that whole thing, wich is this feeling of being obliged to love and cry for the American flag every morning. But what you have in one city, we have in the whole continent.
LOL New Yorkers are the most INTOLERANT people. If you are judging the greatness of Americans on New Yorkers then you are saying Americans are 10x better than any people on Earth. Unlike you, I HAVE lived in areas of various climates, cultures, etc and I can tell you the same thing, the very thing you seem to hate, the american flag, makes this country stronger because it UNITES everyone no matter where you are. I cannot tell you the power of seeing American flags EVERYWHERE after 9-11. On houses, cars, etc. It was thrilling and empowering to witness. The communist rally I attended in Cuba during my visit was such a dud in comparison it was almost pathetic to see.
WITHOUT the flag humping factor. And Champ, believe me, Europe doesnt care THAT much about America. As much as you think here in europe people insult you guys a lot, they dont. I am just doing so because in this discussion, i have to, since i have to talk about America, but outside of this discussion, no one cares, not even me. Because here, life is fucked, and people have more to worry about then some mosque being built on top of the American pride. Yes, the general idea of America is a bad one, but its also a forgetful one. It is a side note in our memories that says 'Meh'. Ask Iron, he lives in Poland. Ask him if he has any feeling for america other than 'Meh'.
And nihil is pretty right. Yall are gonna make Dist feel bad, as well as other people like Dist.
You missed the point. The point is, the hate machine is in place, and you are proof of it by your very posting lol its almost a lesson in psychology just as much as American patriots are. The thing I like about American patriots is I would prefer to live in what I know than what I can only imagine.
Everything you said is basically the same as what an American would say about his/her country, adjusted with your own personal bias and opinion. We are the flag humpers, but yet you still have "enough" love for your country. Same shit in my eyes. Thats why I can sit back and laugh, because I think I am the only person crazy (sane?) enough to not give a shit about nationalism or patriotism.
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Re: Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.
We aren't talking about the past people, we are talking about now, who does what now, not in the past.
Muslim center is still a good idea, shows religious tolerance adn that we can get over a tragic action that was part of a fringe group. Think about the Crusades, they still have churches over in Istanbul, even though they were built in the city sacked by the crusaders. They could have built it else where.
By the same logic, then, I could say that the churches in Istanbul are a smack to the face for the Turkish people.
We aren't talking about the past people, we are talking about now, who does what now, not in the past.
Muslim center is still a good idea, shows religious tolerance adn that we can get over a tragic action that was part of a fringe group. Think about the Crusades, they still have churches over in Istanbul, even though they were built in the city sacked by the crusaders. They could have built it else where.
By the same logic, then, I could say that the churches in Istanbul are a smack to the face for the Turkish people.
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Re: Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
Nihil wrote:Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.
We aren't talking about the past people, we are talking about now, who does what now, not in the past.
Muslim center is still a good idea, shows religious tolerance adn that we can get over a tragic action that was part of a fringe group. Think about the Crusades, they still have churches over in Istanbul, even though they were built in the city sacked by the crusaders. They could have built it else where.
By the same logic, then, I could say that the churches in Istanbul are a smack to the face for the Turkish people.
The greatest thing about it Nihil, is that I think the radicals are gonna get their way this time. And once that mosque is built the fanatics can gloat, but in the end the winner is humanity since tolerance by default always wins. If anything, its the medias fault for blowing this out of proportion.
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Re: Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
Now you just twisted what i said Champ. I dont think New York is some haven of friendliness. thats why i said the closest you have to London is New York, because in London, you have all those cultures packed together, AND they are friendly to one another. New York is well, they talk alot. But they dont go around killing each other. They are capable of living together. If New York was as intolerant as your saying Champ, say like the Southern parts of america are, you wouldnt see the city being so peaceful as it is. AND YES, i know its big city, has cime and all, but the crime levels arent caused by the intolerance. Basicaly, im saying, if it was THE MOST INTOLERANT PLACE OF AMERICA, you would have a lot more hate crimes in that town. My point was that people are capable of living all crammed together and not hate each other to death.
As for your Europe living in one united constitution.....We kinda do. The same way you are the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, i found America, conceptually, you know, in the paper, hard to take as a country. But i found the parallel here in the European Union, wich goes doing the same thing and not doing the same thing at the same time. I can literally take my shit, drive to London, and live there Champ, with no more hassle than i could go live to Southern Portugal. Sure its different language and different place, but even in the same country(Canada, Quebec) you can find differences like that. So yeah, Europe has been since the mid 50s, learning the lesson Champ, and i believe it took Hitler to show the path to this continent. That and, the technological advancement allowed the inter communications in such a big land possible. And before you go saying America taught Europe how to take many cultures and let them live together....no. Just...no. I dont believe in this. I think that the USA did not teach Europe and vice versa about multi culturing. There is no correlation there. I would like to know how you came to that conclusion. Im thinkin the american help in world war 2? Still doesnt correlate with this yet.
Also, i think your viewing the individuality of the various countries in Europe as a segregation of Europeans as a group. Thats not the feeling here. I see a french person here, or in Greece, or in Spain, i say hi, it is a warming feeling to see so many nations united as one here. I trully believe it is nice to see the evolution from being nations at war, to being one big united land. You have ALWAYS been ONE nation, one RACE. Europe hasnt. MAYBE thats why its harder for you to see unity here.
I agree, that after 9/11, the way americans stood together to say 'Hey, we're still here, and you didnt bring us down', yes, THAT WAS amazing, and i expected nothing less from them, the problem was after Champ, when you were all united in HATE. Blindly followed anything and blindly hating everything. The truth is, because America went for so long...untouched, when you are finaly touched, its a shock, confusion, and a novelty that no one was used to, so it was expected that your reaction wasnt gonna be the best one. But ultimately, its matured, and hopefully, the next blow given to you, wont be followed by a wave of hate and attacks to the wrong people.
As for your Europe living in one united constitution.....We kinda do. The same way you are the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, i found America, conceptually, you know, in the paper, hard to take as a country. But i found the parallel here in the European Union, wich goes doing the same thing and not doing the same thing at the same time. I can literally take my shit, drive to London, and live there Champ, with no more hassle than i could go live to Southern Portugal. Sure its different language and different place, but even in the same country(Canada, Quebec) you can find differences like that. So yeah, Europe has been since the mid 50s, learning the lesson Champ, and i believe it took Hitler to show the path to this continent. That and, the technological advancement allowed the inter communications in such a big land possible. And before you go saying America taught Europe how to take many cultures and let them live together....no. Just...no. I dont believe in this. I think that the USA did not teach Europe and vice versa about multi culturing. There is no correlation there. I would like to know how you came to that conclusion. Im thinkin the american help in world war 2? Still doesnt correlate with this yet.
Also, i think your viewing the individuality of the various countries in Europe as a segregation of Europeans as a group. Thats not the feeling here. I see a french person here, or in Greece, or in Spain, i say hi, it is a warming feeling to see so many nations united as one here. I trully believe it is nice to see the evolution from being nations at war, to being one big united land. You have ALWAYS been ONE nation, one RACE. Europe hasnt. MAYBE thats why its harder for you to see unity here.
I agree, that after 9/11, the way americans stood together to say 'Hey, we're still here, and you didnt bring us down', yes, THAT WAS amazing, and i expected nothing less from them, the problem was after Champ, when you were all united in HATE. Blindly followed anything and blindly hating everything. The truth is, because America went for so long...untouched, when you are finaly touched, its a shock, confusion, and a novelty that no one was used to, so it was expected that your reaction wasnt gonna be the best one. But ultimately, its matured, and hopefully, the next blow given to you, wont be followed by a wave of hate and attacks to the wrong people.
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Re: Muslim mosque near 9-11 site
Dray The Fingerless wrote:Now you just twisted what i said Champ. I dont think New York is some haven of friendliness. thats why i said the closest you have to London is New York, because in London, you have all those cultures packed together, AND they are friendly to one another. New York is well, they talk alot. But they dont go around killing each other. They are capable of living together. If New York was as intolerant as your saying Champ, say like the Southern parts of america are, you wouldnt see the city being so peaceful as it is. AND YES, i know its big city, has cime and all, but the crime levels arent caused by the intolerance. Basicaly, im saying, if it was THE MOST INTOLERANT PLACE OF AMERICA, you would have a lot more hate crimes in that town. My point was that people are capable of living all crammed together and not hate each other to death.
I've lived in the south. I've lived in the north. I've lived and visited foreign countries. I am saying what I have read, seen and felt in general trends in culture here.
Dray The Fingerless wrote:As for your Europe living in one united constitution.....We kinda do. The same way you are the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, i found America, conceptually, you know, in the paper, hard to take as a country. But i found the parallel here in the European Union, wich goes doing the same thing and not doing the same thing at the same time. I can literally take my shit, drive to London, and live there Champ, with no more hassle than i could go live to Southern Portugal. Sure its different language and different place, but even in the same country(Canada, Quebec) you can find differences like that. So yeah, Europe has been since the mid 50s, learning the lesson Champ, and i believe it took Hitler to show the path to this continent. That and, the technological advancement allowed the inter communications in such a big land possible. And before you go saying America taught Europe how to take many cultures and let them live together....no. Just...no. I dont believe in this. I think that the USA did not teach Europe and vice versa about multi culturing. There is no correlation there. I would like to know how you came to that conclusion. Im thinkin the american help in world war 2? Still doesnt correlate with this yet.
There is a BIG correlation. News flash, Hitler was tame compared to some barbarians that raped your ancestors. I don't know why this is a hard concept to understand. Europe begat a group of SCIENTISTS who went on a scientific experiment in social order and formed the United States. In turn, this new country begat modern western thinking and in time gave much to European culture, much more than they would ever be comfortable to admit and certainly still deny. Hell the USA removed European Kings for fucks sake. It was a big bold FUCK YOU to England by the oppressed scientists that set off the revolutions across Europe. Even as an outsider observer I find it sad when Europeans downplay the role the USA, their very child has played in their history, especially modern history. In fact, it would seem that the father has become the babe. Perhaps with time, as I said you will see a united Europe and it seems it is very close. Just remember what it is modeled after.
Dray The Fingerless wrote:Also, i think your viewing the individuality of the various countries in Europe as a segregation of Europeans as a group. Thats not the feeling here. I see a french person here, or in Greece, or in Spain, i say hi, it is a warming feeling to see so many nations united as one here. I trully believe it is nice to see the evolution from being nations at war, to being one big united land. You have ALWAYS been ONE nation, one RACE. Europe hasnt. MAYBE thats why its harder for you to see unity here.
I don't believe it is any more common courtesy then you get anywhere else in the world. You are reading too much into it. As long as language and borders and law separate europeans you will never have true unity. Which by the way, your welcome to the USA for making a common language across the world which is widely used, English.
Dray The Fingerless wrote:I agree, that after 9/11, the way americans stood together to say 'Hey, we're still here, and you didnt bring us down', yes, THAT WAS amazing, and i expected nothing less from them, the problem was after Champ, when you were all united in HATE. Blindly followed anything and blindly hating everything. The truth is, because America went for so long...untouched, when you are finaly touched, its a shock, confusion, and a novelty that no one was used to, so it was expected that your reaction wasnt gonna be the best one. But ultimately, its matured, and hopefully, the next blow given to you, wont be followed by a wave of hate and attacks to the wrong people.
The Romans were strong not only for their cultural pride (just as the US) but also for its fierce and vengeful retaliations against those who bear arms against her. The response was characteristic of an proud Imperial power and is to be expected. Perhaps the Europeans numbed response to the millionth bombing in the Basque region is the true tragedy. That no justice or vengeance or righteous anger is conjured up.
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