Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
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Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
I really don't think there should be any position or rank within the clan where someone can simply run around doing whatever suits him/her at the cost of others. Yes leadership positions should hold power, but not absolute power, and there should be some sense of responsibility. Whether this be GM, DL or Chancellor, their decisions need to have some kind of logic behind them that is acceptable to the clan.
For that reason I propose an objectionable decision act where:
One or more person sees a decision as wrong or inappropriate (no not a decision that he simply does not like, there must be proof that the decision goes against a rule or injures someone else's rank, position, reputation (not rep points) or feelings for no good reason). If an objection arises then it should be allowed to put to vote in either council or senate for a repeal. The objection should be PM'ed to senator or councilor of choice. If a topic is made about it in public then the objection is to be automatically rejected. However, the authority involved in passing said decision should post his sound reasoning in public AFTER he has discussed it with head of council or senate representative. If his decision was based on sensitive information then it may remain private. The definition of sensitive is at the sole discretion of the head councillor or the senate representative.
There should be checks and balances on this as well so:
If 2 unsupported objections are made within a month then no more will be taken
If a certain power has more than 3 repealed decisions in a month then he may be punished as deemed fit, even demoted.
This is just a rough draft that can be adjusted of course, but I want the senate to take a look into it
For that reason I propose an objectionable decision act where:
One or more person sees a decision as wrong or inappropriate (no not a decision that he simply does not like, there must be proof that the decision goes against a rule or injures someone else's rank, position, reputation (not rep points) or feelings for no good reason). If an objection arises then it should be allowed to put to vote in either council or senate for a repeal. The objection should be PM'ed to senator or councilor of choice. If a topic is made about it in public then the objection is to be automatically rejected. However, the authority involved in passing said decision should post his sound reasoning in public AFTER he has discussed it with head of council or senate representative. If his decision was based on sensitive information then it may remain private. The definition of sensitive is at the sole discretion of the head councillor or the senate representative.
There should be checks and balances on this as well so:
If 2 unsupported objections are made within a month then no more will be taken
If a certain power has more than 3 repealed decisions in a month then he may be punished as deemed fit, even demoted.
This is just a rough draft that can be adjusted of course, but I want the senate to take a look into it
Disturbed- Forum Enforcer
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Re: Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
I agree But don't think it's cuz I got denied. I planned on it tbh I've been thinking this since a bit ago.
Aureus- Dark Council
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Re: Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
Is it associated with CoG's rejection?
Chaos- Join date : 2009-10-23
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Re: Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
read...it applies to any and all circumstances that may be deemed inappropriate or lacking proper backing. I will not comment on this act's relation to any particular event since that leads to one person coming and explaining that event in his own twisted way, getting away with it and the act never gets a chance. It needs to be viewed impartially without any specific event in mind.
Disturbed- Forum Enforcer
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Re: Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
ok
i think its a good idea
i think its a good idea
Chaos- Join date : 2009-10-23
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Re: Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
lol --
the senate rep, grand chancellor or prime min.
should not have the power to overthrow the faction leaders and
undo every single thing a group of members find questionable
plus no sith should question how the GM runs the Jedi
and no jedi should question how the DL runs the Sith
a Major diffrence between the sith and jedi however is that if sith have a problem with there leadership they change it themselves not wait around for the current leader to step down
also the sith rankings allow the DL to demote sith for any reason he/she see fit (the current ones) same with the jedi to XD
if anything the only people who should challenge the DL/GM's choices are his/her DC or MC
the senate rep, grand chancellor or prime min.
should not have the power to overthrow the faction leaders and
undo every single thing a group of members find questionable
plus no sith should question how the GM runs the Jedi
and no jedi should question how the DL runs the Sith
a Major diffrence between the sith and jedi however is that if sith have a problem with there leadership they change it themselves not wait around for the current leader to step down
also the sith rankings allow the DL to demote sith for any reason he/she see fit (the current ones) same with the jedi to XD
if anything the only people who should challenge the DL/GM's choices are his/her DC or MC
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Re: Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
it's called an amendment for a reason
Disturbed- Forum Enforcer
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Re: Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
i dont accept your amendment to my version of the sith.......
jedi always poking around were there not wanted
jedi always poking around were there not wanted
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Re: Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
sen rep can make a vote in which senators will wote about kicking current DL outta his position.
but thats the only stuff they can do.
and btw jedi should not really care about sith leadership - as sith dont do to jedi.
noone can really overthrow faction leaders position - and its good - think about every demotion they need to ask for example prime minister..... stupid huh?
When i was DL - and i made rule that every SL should be active -they talk against me - but it was the only thing they could do.... DL/GM faction - their rules.
but thats the only stuff they can do.
and btw jedi should not really care about sith leadership - as sith dont do to jedi.
noone can really overthrow faction leaders position - and its good - think about every demotion they need to ask for example prime minister..... stupid huh?
When i was DL - and i made rule that every SL should be active -they talk against me - but it was the only thing they could do.... DL/GM faction - their rules.
Nomad- Senator - Dark Council
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Re: Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
Nomad wrote:sen rep can make a vote in which senators will wote about kicking current DL outta his position.
the way i understand it is thats a council vote not a senate a complete agreement of the council can remove the DL
but there has to be a mass amount of abuse beyond the demotion and rejection of jedi who have annoyed me for as long as ive been in JvS and theres not that many
and for the record the only one i ever demoted for the lulz is Siris and i wasnt even DL then
but nomad agreed that putting siris into the exile rank was worth the LULZ
Last edited by Sesshomaru on Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
you have not read the fine points. If you demote someone withing good reason, then there can be no objection and if someone is being whiny and objecting to everything he instead will be punished or stopped from objecting. However, this is something I'd like to put through to senate via any senator, perhaps thing or dray since it is quite clear you are against the act.
Yes it is their faction but should not each official have check and balances? Or can they run around making decisions just because they feel like it without any good reason? In their own house that is fine but when dealing with other ppl, even if it is internet, it would be better if they not pass decisions that are baseless or inappropriate.
To Sess, clearly you have not read. It applies to both factions, and there are senators and councilors from both factions present. This is not to prevent or weaken power but to ensure a more responsible approach towards leadership rather than the 12 year old who got a new toy approach. And your rejection does not finalize anything either, just so you understand.
And this applies to most leadership, so that it can have a sort of check of all its opinions in case a blunder was made while making a decision. In fact, it should give the decision maker (if he honestly cares for the clan) some peace of mind that he is making the right decision. Before anyone mentions drama, please read the PM clause.
Yes it is their faction but should not each official have check and balances? Or can they run around making decisions just because they feel like it without any good reason? In their own house that is fine but when dealing with other ppl, even if it is internet, it would be better if they not pass decisions that are baseless or inappropriate.
To Sess, clearly you have not read. It applies to both factions, and there are senators and councilors from both factions present. This is not to prevent or weaken power but to ensure a more responsible approach towards leadership rather than the 12 year old who got a new toy approach. And your rejection does not finalize anything either, just so you understand.
And this applies to most leadership, so that it can have a sort of check of all its opinions in case a blunder was made while making a decision. In fact, it should give the decision maker (if he honestly cares for the clan) some peace of mind that he is making the right decision. Before anyone mentions drama, please read the PM clause.
Disturbed- Forum Enforcer
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Re: Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
actually both .the way i understand it is thats a council vote not a senate a complete agreement of the council can remove the DL
and i demoted siris for his not "sith" app - he agreed to it later - cause he was lazy to wrote good app - i used that as a warning to all wannabe sith who would post shitty app......
Nomad- Senator - Dark Council
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Re: Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
as I predicted you guys are referring to specific events which do not even come under this law if there is no issue. This is not a retaliation to any one, specific event at all. But I have realized that there is no real way to prevent douchebaggery at the top and that is not good, whether we have had problems at the top or not. It also gives more power to the clan members which is in line with the democratic beliefs of JvS
Disturbed- Forum Enforcer
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Re: Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
everyone has a different view, and decisions dont need logic they can be personal and emotional and guaranteed to be biased to someoneDisturbed wrote:[color=darkred]I really don't think there should be any position or rank within the clan where someone can simply run around doing whatever suits him/her at the cost of others. Yes leadership positions should hold power, but not absolute power, and there should be some sense of responsibility. Whether this be GM, DL or Chancellor, their decisions need to have some kind of logic behind them that is acceptable to the clan.
Disturbed wrote:
For that reason I propose an objectionable decision act where:
One or more person sees a decision as wrong or inappropriate (no not a decision that he simply does not like, there must be proof that the decision goes against a rule or injures someone else's rank, position, reputation (not rep points) or feelings for no good reason). If an objection arises then it should be allowed to put to vote in either council or senate for a repeal. The objection should be PM'ed to senator or councilor of choice. If a topic is made about it in public then the objection is to be automatically rejected. However, the authority involved in passing said decision should post his sound reasoning in public AFTER he has discussed it with head of council or senate representative. If his decision was based on sensitive information then it may remain private. The definition of sensitive is at the sole discretion of the head councillor or the senate representative.
so you want to overburden the senate and council with votes everytime someone has a flipping objection unneeded, dont like a way the faction is being run, if your sith change it yourself, if your jedi deal with it.
i dislike the fact you think members should be able to bypass and go behind the faction leaders decision just to get there way kind of double standard
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Re: Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
OK Dist, I understand where you're coming from, but I can rephrase and rename this to be a lot less complicated and a lot more acceptable to all:
I'm thinking of calling it the Senate Veto Act. What do you think?
Proposal wrote:The Senate will hereby have the power to vote on an issue, should a member of the Alliance Council use his powers in a way as to be considered objectionable. If a Senator feels that an action by the Chancellor, Prime Minister, Senate Representative, Dark Lord, or Grand Master, is unreasonable for any reason, then he may call a vote. Before the actual vote, both the Senator and the Alliance Councilor in question will provide reasons to support their actions and sway the Senate in their favor. After two days of this "case making" a vote will be called to decide whether the Councilor's actions were justified, or if they were uncalled for. Should it be decided that the Councilor was wrong, then the decision will be overturned. Should a Councilor be vindicated all will remain the same. The issue will stand with the Councilor's decision unless or until their decision is overturned. The "case making" voting will take place in the Senate, and will involve only the Senate.
Should a Senator call too many of these votes in a short period of time(i.e. 3 or more in less then 6 weeks) and be proven wrong each time, disciplinary action will be taken against them for disruption. This punishment can range anywhere from a 24-hour forum ban to a month's suspension of Senate duties, depending on the severity of the issue and the frequency of the challenges.
I'm thinking of calling it the Senate Veto Act. What do you think?
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Re: Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
I like it except there should also be something for if the person who was found to have passed too many objectionable decisions, since that would be a clear indicator that he is not leadership material. But yes that sounds good except that a non senator should be able to PM a senator and have reasonable belief that his objection will get a fair look even if it is not upheld.
Disturbed- Forum Enforcer
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Re: Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
That's a given. A Senator's duty is to represent the clan, review ideas and objections, and determine whether or not they are necessary to be voted on.
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Re: Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
tbh dist has a good arguement. My opinion is that i know that power seems cool and you can do whatever you want with it, doesnt mean you should abuse that power. We have had people who have abused power for 'the lulz'. They got booted out of clan if i do recall, or left on there own terms. On the other hand Sess' side states that since he is a faction leader he can do whatever he/she wants. Which is true but, i think it should be certain things (apps,in-game admin etc) one example of the Faction leaders 'power' or influence is when the vote in the senate for Sess' DL Sith Rank Proposal Revisions. Sess took tabs of people who voted and voted for the big 3 options. In my heart that is a abuse of power. In my caniving mind its a good idea. But loopholes like that should be liquidated and sealed.
Im pro-gun for the Senate Veto Act. Maybe with some revisions we can have a better system.
Im pro-gun for the Senate Veto Act. Maybe with some revisions we can have a better system.
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Re: Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
i personally don't think this should give the senate the power to change the factions or change something the the DL/GM made a rule, or give them the power to reverse a demotion, unless the rule is outrageous or the demotion is for '' the luz'' they were the ones chosen to run the factions I think everything they do is for a specific reason and the rest of the clan should back them for it?
If you want it to be like this there might as well not be a GM/DL and just a be a DC and MC? I see no point in this unless they are ruling there faction like a tyrant or something
If you want it to be like this there might as well not be a GM/DL and just a be a DC and MC? I see no point in this unless they are ruling there faction like a tyrant or something
Last edited by haize on Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:54 pm; edited 2 times in total
haize- Masters Council
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Re: Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
Bob, in the Act I wrote up, in order for a decision to be overturned, not only does there have to be evidence of wrong doing, but the Senate has to agree on it by two-thirds.
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Re: Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
and we will end up revising it so all the senators agree to it as well
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Re: Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
this is basically putting the DL?GM on a leash they should not have to check up or be worried that what they want to do with there faction will be reversed because 1 or 2 people don't like it or maybe even 5 people don't like it.
If this rule gets passed i say that not only the Senate has a say weather or not it gets reversed but the Jedi/Sith themselves get a vote to see if they like the new rule jedi vote for jedi rules sith vote for sith rules.
If this rule gets passed i say that not only the Senate has a say weather or not it gets reversed but the Jedi/Sith themselves get a vote to see if they like the new rule jedi vote for jedi rules sith vote for sith rules.
haize- Masters Council
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Re: Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
This includes all Alliance Councilors Haize: Champ, Dray, Hero, Sess, and myself, and the decisions will stand unless the overturn actually happens. Meaning that during the vote, the decision of the Councilor would stand unless, at the end, the vote ended in an overturn. Also, it's not that easy to get 2/3rds majority on a vote. It would be impossible to post a faction specific vote because there's no way to isolate the voting area from the other faction without a shit load of hassle that would involve changing everyone's permit levels for each vote.
EDIT: Moving this to Grand Convocation Chamber since it's a very much, in clan issue we're discussing.
EDIT: Moving this to Grand Convocation Chamber since it's a very much, in clan issue we're discussing.
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Re: Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
i know it includes the entire council im just saying that the GM/DL would be the ones most affected by this, and i think they should have there freedom to run there faction however they want unless proven other wise...
haize- Masters Council
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Re: Objectionable Decision Act Proposal - Suggestion
Well you guys can debate it for a while. This doesn't have to be voted right now, it can wait a few days until we get a general idea of how the clan will view it.
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