Another view - Suggestion

I recently got bored and decided to go through all the old topics/resignations to see what went wrong and well here is what I came up with

JvS

Both agree , done
^

PM,Chancellor
^

Council
^

Senators who vote on things
^

Members who propose

In terms of getting things done, this is a giant bureaucracy, which makes JvS in terms of efficiency. As effective as the U.S government in getting things done, which I hope most people realize is not good.
On getting things done, members propose whatever proposition. While debating on things , this process takes 1-2 weeks maybe? Possibly longer if no compromise is struck and a ''tragedy'' must occur for action to be taken. From there on , this goes onto the senate, where it most likely takes another week or two then onto council where it again takes some more time. This is honestly a VERY ineffective clan structure.

A ideal structure would be somewhere along the lines of this quote:
"In your own life, what you want is a seamless web of deserved trust."



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A fix would possibly be of the sorts:

Debate with everyone, counc and senate are actively in the debate, approval given, passed
^
Redundant process of debate with a majority, move to senate , debate with minority , move to council , debate with minority , passed
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It simply isn't this that I see, I shall take a quote from Kami
"The Leadership is only supposed to pass measures to improve the clan, they shouldn't have to play an intensive role in admining, that what Enforcers and Regulators are for."

What type of leadership is this? It is alright to delegate task to everyone but as most would agree, Enforcers and Regulators have failed but why? Unlike Policer officers and the FBI of those sorts who are PAID to enforce the rules, Enforcers and Regulators are here as regular players with admin. Along with this, unlike in real life where officers are called for REAL things (murders, violence, etc) , most of the problems here came from non-admin members and admin members. Also most have to realize this is a gaming clan, things are quite different. When your freedom of speech is restricted or right next to taken away, that leads to strife. This strife is what some people look for , for example.... my group in infamous. We would just go in, checking in on clans who had those ''admin warriors''.

Here also since enforcers and regulators are supposed to BABYSIT everyone:
"We ask that all members view this as a clan for fun, and not to take anything too seriously. We understand that emotions may flare at times, but we ask that you try not to act out of passion only."

By disallowing anyone to argue, you have put enormous pressures on admins to ensure the server is to act in complete serenity. Simply put, memebrs should be able to handle their OWN conflicts without any admins coming in. Another important issue that has been put into the spotlight is the recruiting method , open doors recruiting. This simply has essentially NEVER worked, in JKA atleast. Most of the successful clans have either had restrict recruiting, or the highly favorable , invite-only method. By using those methods that restrict the amount of people who can enter, quality is ensured.

Another important issue is the total lack of leadership. A clan is NOT about forums, it is ingame. This is where JvS lost enormous strength, everyone visits the forums but besides a certain few. Leadership ingame is almost nowhere to be found, along with Champ not being too active ingame and some backbone members who lead ingame leaving. No one else has taken the initiative to lead ingame and keep control within the server and also to be a leader figure.

I do agree , respect is needed a lot more. By wishing to see JvS grow, the left hand does not know the right hand and the left leg does not know the right leg. This lack of association has led to cliques,a previously brought up issue, to occur. Although cliques will ALWAYS occur , such hostility to each other can be prevented or lessened. Now onto the skill factor within JvS.

I have a firm belief ( currently attained in life and used in JKA) that multiple areas of knowledge should be combined to make the ultimate warrior. JvS is ''strictly'' a nf tffa clan and with that , it most likely will never change, which is a hindrance. More importantly by encouraging those to play in different aspects ( I currently draw upon from FF, ctf and mb2 , spinmod and a few others for my overall gameplay) you can become a much better player and less restricted to one gametype. As such is the case with basers who once they leave base, completely blow . To those who player Mb2 , FF , and others who strictly player only one gametype. Before JvS I only had Nf'd strictly for about 5 months and that was wayyy back and when I was on dialup too. Personal side note , why was the Limited Force aspect removed? I had plenty of fun sniping people (As Lucky would agree =d)


That is all I could think of at the moment(Once again :/) , whatever else I can think of I'll add to it.

The regulators and enforcers control ingame aspects. Leadership deals with core issues. Serv, i dont know where you get this 'serenity' idea. i see people argue all the time in game. All that is asked, is they do this in a civilized manner. There are 5 councilors Serv. of those 5, only 2 of them are not ingame active. AND kami has been very active lately. hero, nomad and myself play daily. NOT TO MENTION, the Senate counts as a gateway to evth that can be changed. The changes you proposed were basically jamming the 5 steps that are in practice now, into 2 giant steps. no change at all. There is one aspect that i saw now, regarding voting in proposals, that is easily fixed. Most proposals are technically passed after 2 days, but one or 2 senators may take more time. BUT, technically speaking, a proposal gets passed real quick serv. We arent the US government becuz there is no big deal in the table here. This is a gaming clan, and we will boot people with attitude.

Things got carried away in that aspect a few months ago, but tightness is in shape again. You havent seen people who are bad come here. They get the boot. In the past month, i saw i think 5 people get the boot in their application time. Also, this is a big clan, so 5 people cant , and are not expected, to control every thing that happens. That is what admins are for. And if an admin is the problem, believe me, it is very serious issue with us.

As for the skill aspect, game is for fun. Our official and main drive is nf tffa, but guns and force is not prohibited. In fact, Kami just organized a guns group. All is asked is to remember to get that saber on work.

I think Serv is failing to realize we have emergency voting measures to get things done in less than 48 hours, or in the case of a raid or clan war, 24 hours. When the shit hits the fan we move fast if need be, but when it doesnt hit the fan we like to take our time and debate and discuss a subject so hopefully we dont have to return to it and revise/adjust it again.

This simply has essentially NEVER worked, in JKA atleast. Most of the successful clans have either had restrict recruiting, or the highly favorable , invite-only method. By using those methods that restrict the amount of people who can enter, quality is ensured.

You looking at living proof it has worked. I was a recruit through open recruitment into SNJ, imagine if they turned me down how different the history of SNJ and JvS would have been? Not to mention Aard, and many others who joined were open recruits. Maybe if we told some of them they had to jump through 20 hoops tp join they would have gone elsewhere. This is all speculation, but my point is both systems of recruiting have an upside and a downside. Have you even read my sponsor idea in the darth bar? I think it would greatly improve recruitment, and to be honest it was you who inspired me to think of it and write it up.

As for the other game modes, no one is stopping anyone from setting up a FF server and with the size of the clan I would not mind even seeing a FF team work together to get good to compete etc. The main server and the main core of players though should be NF TFFA players. We decided that when we formed the clan since the whole FF vs NF debate tore SNJ apart a few times and I don't want to see the old "Force wars" return.

Another important issue is the total lack of leadership. A clan is NOT about forums, it is ingame. This is where JvS lost enormous strength, everyone visits the forums but besides a certain few. Leadership ingame is almost nowhere to be found, along with Champ not being too active ingame and some backbone members who lead ingame leaving. No one else has taken the initiative to lead ingame and keep control within the server and also to be a leader figure.

I agree with this completely but I go through phases, and I am in a phase where JKA doesnt appeal too much to me at the moment. So I have not been palying as much on the server. I am not blind to the fact that when I play more people from the clan play on the server and thus resulting in more traffic. Hell. I phoenix rose SNJ about four times from death because of that. In fact, 99% of the members here if not 100% were recruited directly or indirectly by me (by being recruited by someone i recruited). I know the importance of good leadership on the server to keep it going.

We need people on the server being helpful, funny and just genrally kickin ass to give us a good name. HEll when I played consistantly I had people coming from other servers and clans just to fight me because I had developed a rather good reputation. The funny part is, I am just a little tired of doing it all alone. If I saw more Jvs on the server more often I would probably play more. But as for now, I feel retired from "clan building".

This isn't something serv just pulled out of his ass, he's been working on this report for the last few weeks. He's been conducting surveys, questioning members, organizing scientific experiments... there is nothing he hasn't done, and all of his hard work has led to this final outcome. So I think everyone should take a second look at what serv said and give it some thought.


Champion: "I phoenix rose SNJ about four times from death"
(P.S. - IT WAS ONLY 2.5 TIMES YOU LOSER)

Tiw wrote:This isn't something serv just pulled out of his ass, he's been working on this report for the last few weeks. He's been conducting surveys, questioning members, organizing scientific experiments... there is nothing he hasn't done, and all of his hard work has led to this final outcome. So I think everyone should take a second look at what serv said and give it some thought.


Champion: "I phoenix rose SNJ about four times from death"
(P.S. - IT WAS ONLY 2.5 TIMES YOU LOSER)

Yeah but like sex, we guys tend to exaggerate everything LOL

I really want his opinion on my recruitment idea I posted though.

The point is he's missing things. That proposed process was enacted nearly two weeks ago with the requirement that suggestions be put in the Grand Convocation Chamber for debate among the clan and it's Leaders then once something is found it goes to the Senate for technical adjustment, then finally the Council for final approval. In reality most measures are finished in under two weeks, the Council is usually done in less then 3 days with voting, the Senate takes the longest with an average of 7 days.

There's also no restriction saying you can't play wherever, but if you're a part of the clan, then you owe at least a tenth of the time to our servers. In fact there are already ranks for Force and Guns, but no one is interested. We have a server set up as Sp damage, that no one wants to play on. We have siege and CTF configurations on the Clan War no one uses. We aren't restricting anyone, no one is interested in practicing things, they just want to have fun.

Thats a good point aard. And I think the reason why it is that way is because most of our recruits come directly from the nf tffa server and not say, a full force server. Its only expected that recruits drawn from that game type will favor it most.

1) A Major reason why SNJ had a ton of people was well...more people were playing JKA back then. If I'm correct wasn't it just the recruiting and exodus waves that a lot of clans go through?

2)24 hours?48 hours? Even that isn't that fast

With the CTF and siege things there are a few problems you obviously can't miss. 1)Some of them are screwed up(No problem though, seriously) , 2) Running those cfgs causes the server to crash a bit more quickly

All in All , you guys basically missed the entire point of the view. You guys probably read paragraph by paragraph and commented on it, right?

Talkin'boutFreedom wrote:1) A Major reason why SNJ had a ton of people was well...more people were playing JKA back then. If I'm correct wasn't it just the recruiting and exodus waves that a lot of clans go through?

2)24 hours?48 hours? Even that isn't that fast

With the CTF and siege things there are a few problems you obviously can't miss. 1)Some of them are screwed up(No problem though, seriously) , 2) Running those cfgs causes the server to crash a bit more quickly

All in All , you guys basically missed the entire point of the view. You guys probably read paragraph by paragraph and commented on it, right?

If you read my responses you would know.


1> Thanks for giving me even the slightest of credit. Guess the SNJ declines, increases were a coincidence with my efforts.

2> Give me a situation where we would need to make a decision faster than 24 hours, and give me a form of leadership that is not tyrannical that can do it.

And if I missed your point, give me solutions as to what you feel would solve it so I can understand what you are coming at better. Are you proposing a single leader? I dont get it. Dont get me wrong, I appreciate this thread and the input but I want to understand better what you feel should be done exactly.

Executive Decision Act. If anything unforeseen comes up it can be solved in under an hour, provided at least three of the Council are on.

I share some of the same aspects with Serv about a couple of things.

The first being leadership. I think he is right in the lack of leadership aspect. I think, scratch that, I KNOW, that there needs to be more people with admin powers on the servers. Iron has a large amount for his servers and it stays regulated most of the time. There needs to be more admins on the JvS NFTFFA. If it's a question of trust, I am aware that we have trustworthy people in this clan who are not in any kind of leadership position. There's also a lot who are not. But use those admin applications, Champ. I'm ready to get this clan in order. Serv wrote a detailed report on things he has observed. Let's move out from here, and start doing things. We need to institute a few more admins for the server. Personally I think there should be a majority of the clan who has admin powers.  There needs to be some interviewing, some trialing for admin, some observing. Things need to get going. Move out from here, and try to build off of this. I personally do not get on the server often due to the battles that go on there. If there was simply more controlled admin activity things would be better. Actually I've seen admins on who won't do anything. That's pretty sad. But that being said;

The second being recruitment. Sure we have some good guys joining the clan, but it's also starting to be trolls. I think for a while we should do invite only, but not for forever. Just until we get some things under control. I don't like not knowing most of JvS because they pop in and never see them again. Let's take some time to get to know eachother.

If I get one of those normal "we don't need to change anything" BS, then I'm done with being of constant assistance. Everytime I've seen someone try to have a voice they've been shot down by "we have already got that".

Disturbed wrote:One clan cannot specialize in everything. There are different clans with diff specialties. If we were a FF FFA clan or had servers like that, we'd have 7-10 members max. The reason is, once a pro gets on the FF server, there is absolutely nothing a newbie or slightly less skilled person can do to win. Even if the guy is not amazingly underpar, he will get beaten so badly he'll look like a total noob. That causes most people to leave the server. And most FF pro's are jerks, so, that would not be good.
S

That's one reason why everyone likes NF. Cause no matter how noobish you are, you still have somewhat a chance. In FF, if you don't know what you're doing, you'll die within 3 seconds. Most FF pros are nice anyways :E

Talkin'boutFreedom wrote:

Disturbed wrote:One clan cannot specialize in everything. There are different clans with diff specialties. If we were a FF FFA clan or had servers like that, we'd have 7-10 members max. The reason is, once a pro gets on the FF server, there is absolutely nothing a newbie or slightly less skilled person can do to win. Even if the guy is not amazingly underpar, he will get beaten so badly he'll look like a total noob. That causes most people to leave the server. And most FF pro's are jerks, so, that would not be good.
S

That's one reason why everyone likes NF. Cause no matter how noobish you are, you still have somewhat a chance. In FF, if you don't know what you're doing, you'll die within 3 seconds. Most FF pros are nice anyways :E

Nice to you maybe, since you are the troll of JKA. not nice to others.


Saint, your complaining that people shoot down ideas becuz 'we already have that'?

What do you want, i dont get it. You want us to dispose of what we already have to reimpose it again? The recruitment system seems fine.

You say you agree with Serv, yet you dont. Serv doesnt want militaristic admining in the servers, he doesnt agree with controling people's speach, but i assured him we dont. yet you want it to be quiet and nice for you. Cant do that, sorry. Im not gonna steal people's freedom of speech so they wont disrupt you or anyone. Anyone can speak, and the parameters to it are set. No flaming, No spamming. note that flamebaiting, to me, is the same as flaming. its worser actually. Those are controled and punished. Apart from that, you need to learn to accept others views. Some people argue and talk alot on the servers, and thats fine, just be civilized while doing it. If there are admins on, they will proceed as usual when encountered with such situation.

Since you agree with Serv in so many things, you will agree with his old view that we have enough admins.

I have said this, and ill say it again. Just cause you dont like someone, doesnt mean they are bad. Keep that in mind.

Not every clan is perfect i'll say that but when it comes between FF and NF
certain people belong in certain clans. Champ is surely open to suggestions serv. I think that all we actually need is some more "responsibility" when it comes to recruitment. I like champ's thread about it. The screening process isnt too dictorial nor too loose.

This Thread is Full of Win.

https://jvsclan.darkbb.com/darth-bar-f19/new-screening-process-idea-serious-t1641.htm

So with that being said...



Peace Out.

I was referring to the flame baiting on the server. It goes on like crazy, no one gives a shit.
You pick my argument apart like we are debating religion. This isn't the rancor pit. You don't listen to these complaints and throw BS back, you're gonna get a BS clan.
That's why you fail. Why don't you accept my views as you just told
me too? Have fun with your fail. Im done with JvS take me off the members roster.

Settle down, if we really want ideas to be heard the forums really aren't for it. Better to do it ingame, maybe lets schedule a ingame meeting later today or tommorrow?

Nothing will happen.

Things will happen, you gotta learn to rally people. Cause you get a rally, next to nothing can stop it

Until champ gets pissed and bans everyone

Lawl, champ wouldn't that. And him banning me constantly hasn't stopped my plans eva O=

Alright then lets schedule a meeting then on cw server or sth.

5-6 today or GIW time tommorrow

should do it so we dont disrupt GIW though...

umm 5 - 6 EST???