Senatorial Rule Amendment? - Suggestion

Nihil, whats the point of a senate if the clan knows what is going on. The Senate votes on ideas that have been presented that is none of the rest of the clan's business until its passed. Showing you whats being voted on serves no purpose at all except to fulfill peoples needs of having control. There is nothing wrong with not knowing what is going on with the leadership. If you dont trust the leadership, say something... Seriously, who cares if you don't know, it's not your job nor your place to know what is going on.

If you can point to and prove specific instances of someone in the senate having a 'superiority complex' and, because of that messing up and breaking the rules, let us know and we will take care of them. The current system exists because there are many, dare I say the majority in this clan that do not desire a lot of drama. Drama, which we all have seen in the past, can tear a clan apart.

I for one do not believe that one person speaking up constitutes a majority. A majority would tell us the whole clan wants this. So far it is just you griping about how we are different from a country that, BTW, you do not seem to like the way it is run.

If you want to sit in this august hall and take part in all the pageantry and hoopla that is a senate membership, get someone to nominate you, I would vote for you just for the debates but do not come in here and rage how the system is broken when you are not sure how it works. Every one knows why we do things this way and, it seems that the only folks that have a problem is you and some folks that have resigned for one reason or another.

Now if it is your aim to paralyze this body and split this clan by forcing everything in the open creating drama, causing people to RQ and or rage as well as killing this clan then you keep pushing. If you aim is to remake this clan in your own image or rather your image of utopia. This is as close as it gets. Peace is kept, acts are passed and the clan moves on. If this is not good enough for you why do any of us bother…

Nihil wrote:... we know what senators voted yay or nay on any particular bill, i

yes true we can see how they voted but you cannot always see what they voted on besides a bill number or act name. We do not even know how we all vote unless the senator decides to make that public.

Aragorn wrote:Nihil, whats the point of a senate if the clan knows what is going on. The Senate votes on ideas that have been presented that is none of the rest of the clan's business until its passed. Showing you whats being voted on serves no purpose at all except to fulfill peoples needs of having control. There is nothing wrong with not knowing what is going on with the leadership. If you dont trust the leadership, say something... Seriously, who cares if you don't know, it's not your job nor your place to know what is going on.

this coming from a conservative is shocking and appalling.


And if you guys think senators are the cream of the crop say so, otherwise, show us everything.

Also Ptolemy, I'm not trying to make it like the U.S, i'm complaining that the current structure could be improved through the application of slightly more work. Oh, and august hall, seriously? Thats what i'm talking about right there, you guys aren't the most important, you are just people who we trust to represent us. Why can't I trust someone we have elected here to vote openly like in all other countries? We need open votes so we know how you guys represent us and if you still do. That ties into term limits, some of your decisions may not represent the whole, by I sure as hell won't know because I'm not allowed to see who votes where and how, I can't even see the debates. My goal, Ptolemy, is to ensure that the clan remains mobile and flexible, but also to provide justice to those who would like to know what goes on behind the lucrative door of the senate. I don't want to destroy anything. Again, you guys talk about drama. If you can't trust us to handle drama, that just says that you guys are on a completely higher planar surface. We just take up the ground level, you guys are gods I suppose, able to handle the "truth" and "drama". You were selected to lead, not keep secrets, and as leaders, how do we know who is doing a good job representing our interests if we don't know the votes? It turns into a club.

Oh btw, ptolemy, if your goal is to keep the status quo and not allow for improvement, then you are tearing apart the clan by not allowing flexibility, and if thats what you want to do, keep pushing against this, if you don't want to loose power or believe yourself superior and able to hold the knowledge of the senate better than we can, keep pushing against this.

And, as I told Thing in our xfire chat, I would turn a nomination down because of how the senate works, I want to fix the senate.

Nihil, it's not your job to see how you are being represented. You vote for the person in their, obviously you trust them and if you didn't vote for anyone, you have no right to complain because if you remain apathetic in getting someone in the Senate that you like and who you think would do their job, then stop complaining. If you did vote and the person didn't get nominated and/or voted into the Senate, keep trying. There is nothing wrong with the Senate as is, the system is working fine. They're not keeping secrets, they're doing their jobs. Last time I checked, it was none of your business (or mine or anyone else's) as to what goes on with the policies. We do get to see them if they pass a senate vote and it's moved to the council. So to say you dont know whats going on is BS because you do, when it's successful. And like it's been pointed out, letting EVERYONE see what is being voted on causes debates which with a lot of people in this clan, will cause drama because they like to argue for argues sake. Flaming is bound to incur and it's not healthy for the clan. Making this stuff private prevents that. BTW You dont have to know EVERYTHING going on in the clan to feel like you're a part of it. Get nominated and if you think the system is so frigging broken, don't turn down a nomination and try to "FIX IT" yourself.

P.S. I find it highly offensive that you called the leaders "Gods". They aren't people who are high and mighty and pass judgement, nor whose sole purpose is to cause you trouble because they have a higher position. They dont rub it in your face and they do try to handle the drama so YOU dont have to. THATS THE POINT OF LEADERSHIP.... Handling something so you don't have too. If you don't appreciate that, why are you here?

man you guys write too much lol

the senate has worked fine for the 10months ive been in this clan and to add some lols

any change to allow people to see the senate votes as they take place would require a vote from senate and council and you wouldnt be able to see it

Aragorn wrote:Nihil, it's not your job to see how you are being represented. You vote for the person in their, obviously you trust them and if you didn't vote for anyone, you have no right to complain because if you remain apathetic in getting someone in the Senate that you like and who you think would do their job, then stop complaining. If you did vote and the person didn't get nominated and/or voted into the Senate, keep trying. There is nothing wrong with the Senate as is, the system is working fine. They're not keeping secrets, they're doing their jobs. Last time I checked, it was none of your business (or mine or anyone else's) as to what goes on with the policies. We do get to see them if they pass a senate vote and it's moved to the council. So to say you dont know whats going on is BS because you do, when it's successful. And like it's been pointed out, letting EVERYONE see what is being voted on causes debates which with a lot of people in this clan, will cause drama because they like to argue for argues sake. Flaming is bound to incur and it's not healthy for the clan. Making this stuff private prevents that. BTW You dont have to know EVERYTHING going on in the clan to feel like you're a part of it. Get nominated and if you think the system is so frigging broken, don't turn down a nomination and try to "FIX IT" yourself.

P.S. I find it highly offensive that you called the leaders "Gods". They aren't people who are high and mighty and pass judgement, nor whose sole purpose is to cause you trouble because they have a higher position. They dont rub it in your face and they do try to handle the drama so YOU dont have to. THATS THE POINT OF LEADERSHIP.... Handling something so you don't have too. If you don't appreciate that, why are you here?

Ara, you are wrong, I will show you why.

First off, sure the senate works, if consider passing or not passing things working. But do they represent he actual opinions of the majority if opinions are mutable and drift as the population grows, of JVS. Their opinions may remain the same, but they can't be voted out, see a problem.

We can see what the pass. AND WE DONT HAVE CONTROVERSY, so why would seeing the debate and the senators opinions cause a difference? Funny how logic works huh?

also, that thing about turning down a nomination, it gets a point across rather than trying to work a system I don't believe lets people know whats going on.

P.S: you shouldn't get offended that I called them gods with the intent being that they apparent moral superiors, because that is the attitude you just portrayed to me, you said that they should only be able to see it because, apparently, they are so morally better than us that they won't flame. The Point of leadership? It is to lead because, as in Athens, Direct Democracy works for a small population, representative allows quicker decisions at the cost, not completely, of individual voice, as it is expressed through representatives. To represent and make decisions for us because it is faster, more efficient, and allows for people to be represented and still, through the representative, have a voice. Do something so that you don't have to? Now you are practically deifying them, heroes in shining armor? I don't think so, we are all humans, we are all equal. Finally I never said that they rubbed their power in our faces, unless you perceive god as doing that.

I think it would be better to have more senators in JvS. More voices would be heard and make a major difference

How is my logic off? We tried to debate things as a clan that was being voted on and not everyone could act maturely and with a level head. Funny how being in the clan longer than you can gain me more experience over you huh?

And if you want to talk about logic, we can. It's already been stated that int he past we HAVE let the public see what has been debated and it HAS caused controversy it HAS caused problems but you say it doesn't when you have been told by the people in the leadership roles that it has

So complaining that the system sucks and saying it's all wrong and secretive is ok but you would turn down a possible opportunity to help CHANGE it and "fix it"? Thats hypocritical. Thats like me having an image on my computer I dont want and saying "I don't like this image" and keep complaining about it being there and then I just keep going on with my life while I have the power to get rid of the image with delete or going away from the page. Thats apathy and hypocrisy at it's best text book definition. If it's so bad, try to change it ESPECIALLY if the opportunity is presented to you. If you turn it down and remain apathetic, then keep your complaints to yourself.

Part of leadership is to take on tasks and burdens so the people under them dont have to. In this case all the drama in the clan. It's avoided by not making all of this public. Making the things being debated on public does nobody good but satisfying your personal need to have control and your personal thirst for the inter-workings of everything. And I am not saying they are heroes by any means I am saying its part of their job to LEAD and as a LEADER they take on other RESPONSIBILITIES so YOU can be a part of this clan with as little drama/problems as possible. Oh and I know you never said they rubbed their power in their face but I didn't want anyone to use that in their argument.

So you want to add terms because if the clan evolves, the opinions of the old members no longer count for anything? That's essentially what you're saying. I can tell you right now that lengthening terms in the Senate will ensure that after a couple months, there will be no Senate. I can also assure you that adding terms at all will paralyze the clan's legislation for every other month of the year.

We don't have controversy on passed Acts? Hah: https://jvsclan.darkbb.com/public-senate-archive-f42/ Read those threads.

We show you everything we vote on, and well tell you what passes. So what exactly is your problem? That you can't see the "debate" most of the DISCUSSION on something takes place long before the Act is proposed. When the Act is proposed there is almost never "debate". You're reading between the lines when the space is blank. There's nothing to hide, there's no reason for anyone to hide it. You're making a big deal about not being able to see the "debate" but you see the issue as long as it is not diplomatic or disciplinary, and if it's diplomatic or disciplinary then it is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. Then you see if an issue passes, or if the issue is revised. Tell me, what exactly could we be hiding?

I don't know why you want to fix what is working just fine. People are being heard, their ideas may not pass, and everyone seems to think this means we're arrogant when all it really is, is a consideration and disagreement. After all, you all elected these people for their opinions, if they disagree then shouldn't you trust their judgment, that it might NOT be a good idea?

but then there would be more chaos, and that is what the senate does not want. in the year that ive been in this clan there has been nothing wrong with the way the senate thinks. and we cant just let more people in the senate, the senate can have a max of 10 people in it, and they have to be people that the senate knows they can trust and not open there mouths about sensative things and cause chaos and fights to abrupt in JvS. If you seem to have a problem with how things are being run in this clan nihil, then i ask you......why are you even in here if you have a problem with the way this clan is being run, the way the senate handles things. the senate IS supposed to keep secrets from the clan, keep the votes private, because if they were public,then everyone would be causing drama and saying things that are irrelevent to the subject. why do you think the senate has there own vote on who they want in, they want who they know is smart,mature,and responsible. the clans senate is a democracy and you want to make it sound like a dictatorship, everything being run the way YOU want it. Everything is perfectly fine with the senate, nothing needs to be changed, the only thing that needs to be changed is having you run all over the senates back while they have more important things to be worrying about. and i just read everything in this thread and i am honestly shocked at this nihil. i thought you completely enjoyed everything that goes on in this clan, members, senate, etc, but now you want things to be run differently. We already stated that if you dont like or approve of how things are being run, then you had an option to leave. The senate is doing perfectly fine and keeping things secret is there job, not everything can be public, only public matters are allowed to be public, everything else is very confidential to this clan and must be voted on in private. so i dont know why you want everything to be public, but things are the way there supposed to be.

Ok let me get this straight.. just so im on the correct page..

Nihil: you want to know how a senator voted on an issue..
for example you want a thread to be made here so when there is a vote going on we get a list such as:
Votes
Ptolemy: Yes
Thing994: Yes
Aardvark: No
Dawn: No

ETC.

Correct?

He wants Senators to have to be re-elected every period as well, and the complete log of the vote, including all comments made in private.

Did I say debate? No. I said we should be able to see your debate and be able to see your decisions.

Do NOT put words in my mouth that I did not say.

Ara, do you just blindly follow whatever you are told? Over the internet, you should know better.

Too Aard now:

Aard, there is never any debate? That is a problem, you guys just sit down and say, hey I like this idea, and everyone else says, ya its perfect, and you pass it? What a cup of tea huh? Big work up there? No.

Aard, by now, and the rancor pit threads, you should know that there is another side that may be right or partly right to every issue. I have considered that maybe you guys are right, but, by using simple deduction, I figure that what I propose would be much more clan embracing. So... Why is it none of my business but yours? Why aren't we on equal levels aard? What makes you my superior just because you were elected to this position you can't lose? Pretty comfy up there huh?

You could be hiding inefficiency and laziness. Your vehemence against doing so says a lot aard, don't be scared, show us what big bad secrets there are, or put away the irrational fear and just show us. Opinions change, you forgot to take that into account...AGAIN

Yes aard, that doesn't sound unreasonable now does it?

And its not like you guys even do much, those threads, in all the time we've been here HAH, that is lazy in fact.

Nihil wrote: Oh, and august hall, seriously? Thats what i'm talking about right there, you guys aren't the most important, you are just people who we trust to represent us...

Should have put the /sarcasm in there but you cannot think that was serious...

Nihil wrote: Oh btw, ptolemy, if your goal is to keep the status quo and not allow for improvement, then you are tearing apart the clan by not allowing flexibility, and if thats what you want to do, keep pushing against this, if you don't want to loose power or believe yourself superior and able to hold the knowledge of the senate better than we can, keep pushing against this.

I am not sure how we have been inflexible...

Nihil wrote:And, as I told Thing in our xfire chat, I would turn a nomination down because of how the senate works, I want to fix the senate.

How can you 'fix' something you are not a part of?

Are u practicing socialism on us?

There's discussion, not debate. Unlike a debate, we consider what is best for us all in the Act, then vote yes or no. It's actually much more civil. I've many times taken part in bettering an Act I disagree with. I still try to find what would benefit the best. You berate Aragorn for assuming, yet you just did the same.

To be blunt, no, we're not on equal levels when it comes to leading the clan. The difference is evident in this very thread, that you see no need for privacy in anything. Does that make me a better person? No. Does it make me a better leader? Yes. And I'm not going to apologize for saying that, because 80% of the legislation you've seen in this clan, is courtesy of my own mind, and the reason we've never had a Clan War with another clan, is because of my recognition that not all issues need to be strung up for all to see.

I don't fear your opinions. That's apparent by the fact that I usually deliver bad news when it comes up. What I'm doing, is avoiding drama. If you don't like that, if you can't live without drama, go watch TNT.

Is it unreasonable to ask me to compromise every aspect that has made me an effective leader? Yes.

No I dont follow what I am told, I follow what I do based off of research,trust and facts. DO NOT accuse me of blindly following ANYTHING without knowing me first. If you knew me you would know I DO NOT blindly follow anything ESPECIALLY over the internet and quite frankly that was jerk move on your part to assume that Nihil. My respect for you has dropped because of that statement.

There isnt always a side thats right or partially right whatever side YOU are against is automatically WRONG and you insist on telling EVERYONE why it's wrong and ANYONE who brings facts that DISPROVE your opinions and your beliefs you push harder. You argue for arguments sake. You like to argue whether you're right or wrong, you will argue until someone concedes because you HAVE to be right. Everyone else who opposes your view is WRONG and that attitude is not right.

If anyone is being lazy its you Nihil. You refuse to do anything about it but run your mouth about how wrong it is. Thats being hypocritical AND apathetic.

The reason it's not your business is because you aren't on the Senate. Just like when Obama goes to do something he doesn't tell everyone he is doing it. When you go to do something private you don't post on the forums saying "Hey guys I'm gonna do this, lets talk about it" No you dont because it's private and you have your reasons as to why. The reasons why have been explained, to reduce the amount of drama and flaming amongst the clan members.

Nihil wrote:And its not like you guys even do much, those threads, in all the time we've been here HAH, that is lazy in fact.

Do not attack the leadership and accuse us of being lazy. The leadership has done more for this clan than you will because of the positions your in. I would like you tell to Champ he is lazy or Aard when Champ provides the servers you play on (rarely) and the forums that you post on. Forum admins keep people in line as well as server admins. If we didn't have them, we would have people like Saint running around having a good time doing whatever they want. The Senate votes for ideas some from faction leaders some that YOU THE CLAN MEMBERS put forth for consideration. DO NOT accuse us of doing nothing when as explained above, all you choose to do is complain and remain apathetic.

Aardvark wrote:...You berate Aragorn for assuming, yet you just did the same.

To be blunt, no, we're not on equal levels when it comes to leading the clan. The difference is evident in this very thread, that you see no need for privacy in anything. Does that make me a better person? No. Does it make me a better leader? Yes. And I'm not going to apologize for saying that, because 80% of the legislation you've seen in this clan, is courtesy of my own mind, and the reason we've never had a Clan War with another clan, is because of my recognition that not all issues need to be strung up for all to see.

I don't fear your opinions. That's apparent by the fact that I usually deliver bad news when it comes up. What I'm doing, is avoiding drama. If you don't like that, if you can live without drama, go watch TNT.

Is it unreasonable to ask me to compromise every aspect that has made me an effective leader? Yes.

Aard once again you put it eloquently as ever. Of course, just for arguments sake, Nihil will pick 1 or 2 lines and write another wall of text. My son has him pegged.

GOD i love drama!

Disturbed wrote:Rofl Ara, I'm sorry but I have an inkling that you sometimes follow blindly at times, idk why, it just feels like it.

Aragorn wrote:

Disturbed wrote:Rofl Ara, I'm sorry but I have an inkling that you sometimes follow blindly at times, idk why, it just feels like it.

lol jk Seriously though when? Answer that question in the thread I made about what others think though, keep the OT out of this thread.

This clan's not sliding into authoritarianism, admins for the most part are doing an ok job.

and where does this notion come from? This clan is nothing like SNJ, where I had no clue what was going on. Oh wait, I don't think you were in it :/

all joking aside, politics have always been behind closed doors, the Senate operations have not really been captured on camera. If one allows this government to become like Ancient Athens, do you know how much of a clusterfuck that would be?

No, this is a democratic republic, an indirect democracy. One where as Aragorn said adjudicates matters. The thing is, Locke believes that gov't rules by the consent of the governed and that if the people disagree, we would have the right to overthrow that government. So far, it seems like this government, given constitutional legitimacy has the consent of the governed..

Of course I know you are not subscribing to revolution, rather you believe that the senate should inform the people of what's being discussed...which it has.

I personally wouldn't want to see brought from the mire issues which would cause endless flaming and whining. FOR SOME REASON, Most people as have been shown here are not wise enough to hold their own tongues (myself included at times).

Would you want to see even more drama, even more flaming, even more pain on this clan's behalf?

you'll probably cite me as containing a lot of logical fallacies but I'm too tired to care

^^

I just got back, morning prac,, I will post more afterschool,

but first off, You guys are hng up on the notion that WE would be allowed to debate there.

No. I never said that, Don't assume that either.

I only said, that we should be able to see senatorial opinions and debate, after all, what is wrong with that?

Term limits, as none of you have been able to effectively argue against, would maintain a sufficient senate to clan members relationship, rather than a club ideal forming.