Senatorial Rule Amendment? - Suggestion

I'd like to propose term limits to senators, I don't see anything wrong with it and would honestly encourage more ACTIVE senate members and would also cut away the brick wall between the Senate and the rest of JVS. As of yet, I don't know how we can see whats going on in the senate, things need to be more transparent, I don't know who votes which way or what votes take place, that could be another amendment.

Feel free to tell me why you agree or disagree.

whats discussed behind close doors is not a matter of public record i believe as it defeats the purpose of having the forums hidden from view

too few people, too sensitive subjects,

senators tell you its being voted anyway. wether or not they are voting yes or no is entirely private. just like electing the president is private voting. in the end, all you really need to know is did it pass or not. and that you do know.

Nihil wrote:I'd like to propose term limits to senators, I don't see anything wrong with it and would honestly encourage more ACTIVE senate members and would also cut away the brick wall between the Senate and the rest of JVS.

You know we have more Retired Senators then we do Active ones? There's a list here: https://jvsclan.darkbb.com/hall-of-knowledge-f4/list-of-senators-t1395.htm

Twelve Senators retired, with only seven still active. The Senate basically regulates itself as we average between 6 and 8 Senators at a given time, and have never had more then 9 active at once.

Nihil wrote:As of yet, I don't know how we can see whats going on in the senate, things need to be more transparent, I don't know who votes which way or what votes take place, that could be another amendment.

You mean this?

Public Senate Act wrote:The bill will respect the secrecy of the senate, but appease to the public by making some things public. A new forum should be added, similar to the Darth Bar (In the way only JvS members can view it), that will list current Bills and Discussions that are going on in a brief summary. This will keep the Senate Rotunda private for the senators, but allow the public to see what is being voted on. The New Forum will hold current bills being voted on and nominees for senate elections. Emergency voting booths, and disciplinary actions are kept within the Senate until a result is reached and will not be made public until such time.

You know this forum exists because of this Act, and we already post any issues being VOTED on here. Votes are kept secret just like in Congress so I don't know what more you could possibly want.

You may want to research your ideas a little before trying to "fix" something that isn't broken.

it doesn't matter about the U.S congress, oh and btw their votes aren't secret i'm pretty sure. Why don't we have a hand in the policy of the clan? Isn't a whole equal to the sum of its parts?

http://www.senate.gov/

also, have you ever heard of CSPAN? that shows that house and senate debates.

and if you really did post everything that you are voting on, then that contradicts another one of your statments that you want to get things "done".

too sensitive subjects? That statement basically has demeaned the rest of us not in the senate because the subject is too "Sensitive" for us.

you are no better than I am and I am no better than you are.

Terms like I said, would prevent a superiority mantra, or a special club mentality and would also encourage more active participation.

aard, what you described is not regulation, that is life, people are born they die, just as they do in this clan, but, many people aren't going to leave this clan.

We do post what's being voted on here, we just don't halt the vote so you can debate over it. Call me a liar if you like but it won't change the truth of that statement.

Yes sensitive. Because it's repeatedly become obvious that anything the slightest bit controversial will basically spark a drama house in the clan. Or would you rather we paraded around someone who is going to be punished? Most people rather that we just do it and don't make a fuss over it.

And kudos for ignoring the "we usually average between 6 and 8 members". Make terms and no one will ever be in the Senate because this is a game and people don't want to have to campaign all the time in a game.

Give me one example of a Senator with a superiority complex. Senators are elected because they have a good attitude. I have only ever seen one Senator flaunt his title and it was an isolated incident that hasn't been repeated.

i never said campaign, but since we read the forums *ahem* we would know what people voted on and their stances, oh and kudos to you for attacking me about research we you obviously hadn't any idea.

I"m not saying that we debate over it, i'm saying that we have an opportunity to see YOUR debates over it and who voted how. Then we could know who we would want on the senate, thus making the clan more geared towards responsibility.

Also, that is no excuse for keeping things private, it could serve as just an excuse to stay in power and be popular with members, which this can boil down to sometimes, popularity or how well known they are.

Aard if the senators who wanted to keep things private didn't have a superiority complex, which i'm not saying that any of them do, because that complex is far too extreme, like comparable to saying that you all have Oedipus complexes. But i'm saying, if you aren't the "moral majority", as you may hail yourself, then why keep it private, sure there might be controversy, but I highly doubt it, prove to me that in this clan we can see the senatorial votes and have drama like in the past.

I have a feeling you don't like elitists aard, but lemme tell you something, this is what this has turned into of you don't allow us to know your votes and be able to vote you back in or out, I support elitism, but that doesn't mean that i have supportive attitudes about all the senators.

based on the attitudes about dawn, i could believe that quite a few number of people would not support his reelection if he could be, but, if you don't make the senate's votes and debate seeable, this is just a waste of time.

CONTINUING FROM OTHER THREAD (SENATE NOMINATIONS WEEK)!!!

not five seconds aard, stop over exaggerating this, if you can't then accept my change, if you don't accept it, I would consider you a power monger for not coming up with an adequate response, also, lets move this to the other thread i created for this purpose.

Idk why it's such a big deal; the clan is over a year old and no problems like the ones ur stating have occurred. Like I said, if this problem arises, I'm sure Aard and Champ will easily take care of it

I'm not talking about research the U.S. government, I'm talking about actually reading the Charter like you're supposed to do.

If the Senators want to make their views public they can, if they don't wish to, then respect their privacy. All you need to know is if it passed, and that no Senate measure can pass without a 66% majority. We're not turning this into the Patriot Act with a justification of "what are you afraid of if you've got nothing to hide?" Some people don't want to be berated by the public for their opinion, which is what this entire clan will do if someone doesn't follow the majority. If they WANT to make it public they will, if they want it PRIVATE then respect it.

You guys can't even solve someone being called a "noob" without Champ, Dray, or myself stepping in. Why the fuck would we make something public we know is just going to cause drama? You elect the Senators because you trust them, and if that trust falters, then you can ask for them to be removed for misconduct. In this you have the power to remove someone, but like in the real word, you have to prove they've done something untrustworthy to impeach them. And if they haven't done anything to gain your mistrust, then why do you have a problem?

Nihil wrote:CONTINUING FROM OTHER THREAD (SENATE NOMINATIONS WEEK)!!!

not five seconds aard, stop over exaggerating this, if you can't then accept my change, if you don't accept it, I would consider you a power monger for not coming up with an adequate response, also, lets move this to the other thread i created for this purpose.

Elections are every two months. The election process takes a full month. During this, if every Senator had to be re-voted in, there would be absolutely no legislation.

I'm gonna be honest ,Nihil. This idea sux ,really sux. One country's government is different than a CLAN's government. IF you want u can be America's president ,then do ur rules. And i think this clan's leadership knows what its doing. You dont need to take offense of this ,just an advise. But if u stop being ultra-politician u will see how many things will change.

Disturbed wrote:
Also, you guys have the most say. You can propose any effing thing in the senate and they will see about it.

and 99% of them will get shot down unless they all personally like it.

xzavier wrote:

Disturbed wrote:
Also, you guys have the most say. You can propose any effing thing in the senate and they will see about it.

and 99% of them will get shot down unless they all personally like it.

Dude, did you READ the fucking Charter? Only 66% need to like it. Not all of them. If anything., we vote on the ones that are needed. So stop talking shit if you don't even know what the senate does.

Thats still not right aard, we know what senators vote for, i just gave you the link to how they vote, stop covering your butt like that.

This is why its an AMENDMENT, charters can be amended can't they, oh wait, ours has been before, so get it straight.

As an elected senator, you should be open about your opinions and your votes, otherwise, we maintain gridlock, the same people always in power, and the clan always subservient under its will, its a responsibility to those who elect you that you share with them what you did, otherwise, you just want to maintain power. Lets see some of the senator's opinions, lets see their debate, we don't get to comment, but senators do. If you aren't afraid of your opinions aard, which you aren't, then show us them in the senatorial debate threads. Finally, if I can only see two pieces of legislation in this section of threads, then whats the big deal, you guys would technically not be doing anything then otherwise.

Also Dist, I only see two things that have been done in this section of threads. If senators want to ban someone, then aard puts their account on hold, away with their admin powers if any. Then, if they flame, then they kicked out, end of problem.

So if what dist said was true, then you guys would have voted on this? But I can tell, since there aren't any senatorial topics created on the matter of Serv's two threads in here, that you don't vote on everything, like I was saying a club of power holders, each who doesn't have to be forced to respond to our needs because their butts are safe.

Dist if you could point out a single instance that you have ever seen a senator say that something was bad in a way, then tell me, because i've never seen it because I am not important enough to see their opinions on articles of debate and passage.

So, having effectively mopped the floor with what you said, I move back to aard.

Aardvark wrote:
You guys can't even solve someone being called a "noob" without Champ, Dray, or myself stepping in. Why the fuck would we make something public we know is just going to cause drama? You elect the Senators because you trust them, and if that trust falters, then you can ask for them to be removed for misconduct. In this you have the power to remove someone, but like in the real word, you have to prove they've done something untrustworthy to impeach them. And if they haven't done anything to gain your mistrust, then why do you have a problem?

thats screams to me "SUPERIORITY COMPLEX!"

YOU GUYS? LOL

you just generalized the entire clan BESIDES SENATORS into a group of angry people who can't handle what you senators have to say and do. WTF? really aard?

I have a problem because I don't know what goes on in the senators club, only you guys do, Your opinions as a senator should be open to the public, otherwise, how do we know that the ENTIRE CLAN WANTS YOU IN OFFICE.

The Patriot Act was an invasion of personal privacy, but being a leader of a clan, that doesn't give you some mandate of heaven to rule without anyone know your true colors. Your opinions and votes are up to debate, JUST LIKE SENATORIAL VOTES IN CONGRESS ARE, you say the opposite aard, but in fact they are.

So, using what you said, if you've got nothing to lose or be afraid of, then why not show us? otherwise, you keep your reigns of power, you keep your one time and forever given clan authority and you keep forever your safety. Be a man aard, don't be a coward.

Edit: What's with taking my saying from another thread?

In all seriousness though, not everything in the world is politics and academia. I do agree that if most issues were public there would be too much arguing as everyone(a majority) seem to go on crusades for justice which usually end up in a lot of useless bickering and flaming. I do think most of the senate voting issues should be private though, not every little thing needs to be known.

Edit: What's with taking my saying from another thread?

QFT

also

Serv honestly? Are you retarded

The system is fine as it is right now. When you actually find an issue with its main purpose of making legislation breaking down then you can let me.

But yes Nihil, I'll review this since a Senator's job is to examine ideas from the clan so thank you for bringing this to my/our attention.

OMG ITS MUIGI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HIIIIII!

oh ya don't forget that the game entails a forum, part of the reason for the existence of any executive body in this clan.

I talked to him and the main problem he has with the senate is that if it [senate] represents the interests of everyone, how can i [Nihil] be sure if, say, dray you [Thing/me] aard or bull etc. have been in it for 2-3 years, while so many new members have joined and so many people have shifted opinions.

You obviously don't understand that "if you've got nothing to hide" part. That I was making fun of it.

You may know what the final tally in Congress is, but Senators are completely free to just vote and keep their reasons personal. Also, not all debate is made public, public debates are made public. And those Sensitive issues, those are instances of punishment(court trial) and diplomatic issues. You don't get to see why the jurors chose what they did, all you get is the final tally and verdict, cameras are not allowed in the court room. Diplomatic issues are ALWAYS handled away from the public to avoid embarrassment. As far as this whole privacy issue goes, we do it very close to the way the U.S. government does, so your demand to see those debates, when they are private, not public, and what the Senators feel on an issue when they wish to remain silent on reasoning are unreasonable demands.

You act like we're conspiring against the clan. This is a clan based on democracy, in a field that favors autocratic leadership. If Champ and I were conspiring against you, there would be no Senate, no public voice. And you act like our desire for speed is going to lead to chaos when evidence points that our method is the only way to keep enough people IN the Senate to get issues past.

well then, why not show us, we elected you to lead, not to make decisions behind a stone wall where we don't know what you do, only that something is magically passed or shot down. Its not about the US either, but, we know what senators voted yay or nay on any particular bill, in fact, so move off that, lets get to something else, the fact that I have no idea what you stand for behind those closed doors and your unwillingness to show me? whats that about?