Re: Politics & Government

by Nihil Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:58 pm

Nihil wrote:
There are plenty of good people in all classes not just one.

by **Aardvark** Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:26 pm

Psychologically speaking, those less well off are more likely to be "good" people, because those well off, mostly get there through greed.

by Nihil Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:32 pm

that last part made me lul aard because there are a greater number of poor people in jail than any other class.

by **Aardvark** Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:34 pm

Yes but does that mean they're worse people, or that they can't afford as good a protection as the wealthy. Many wealthy people have broken laws that ruined lives and have never been punished because of their reputation as a celebrity and the amount they can spend on good lawyers.

by Nihil Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:35 pm

Its true that the wealthy can get better lawyers, but, the poor people are raised by other poor people, and they can hardly get along in life as it is in our economy, and so, they are readily influenced by other sources.

I don't believe in inherently bad people, just those who are irresponsible, are influenced in a bad manner, or are mentally insane.

by **Aardvark** Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:42 pm

I worked in a hospital for a while a couple years ago. And around hospitals there are a lot of beggars and charity drives, I saw a different one every couple days. Now since I worked in the same area, I also saw the proportion of people who gave money to the charities and beggars. Whenever a Doctor or Manager came through, 9 times out of 10 they would just walk by and not even acknowledge the charity. Whenever a Nurse, or a Medical Technician walked by, about half the time they would at least slip a dollar or two to the charity.

My point being, the people with the most money in that hospital hardly ever gave a cent to a charity and never tipped anyone for service. The people with the low salaries and the harder work, would give what they could because they know how it is to not have enough. Go ahead, tell me those Doctors and managers were the "good" people.

by Nihil Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:48 pm

I would also like to compare that to profession, you know, depending on how loose you have of a pocket, liberally or conservatively, you dish out money either way, to do, or not, being a doctor may attract those who are usually pompous.

Also, its hard to give when you see them every day, and they are different, I'm sure i would start thinking, get a job, but in this economy, that doesn't fly.

Oh, and i'm sure doctors do harder work, actually, trust me on that, they do more work than nurses.

Being a nurse, they are usually more humble people, more actively interested in saving lives than making money, as so many doctors it would seem are.

if we could actually make these people pay taxes for transfer payments, then we could jumpstart the economy by raising the aggregate demand and then thus, raising the disposable income of families who won't save, but thats OT, forget this paragraph XD

by **Aardvark** Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:05 pm

Doctors work differently, but not harder. Nurses end up doing much more physically intensive labor then doctors and get much less money. As for the wealthy part, sure they both see those kind of people everyday, the difference is Doctors and Managers disguise their selfishness under pragmatism while nurses and technicians know that no one WANTS to live in poverty and give what they can when they have the funds to spare.

by Nihil Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:08 pm

Doctors have to do the surgery and all the paper with it, well not all, but you get the idea i know.

And i think what i wrote above basically addressed that issue of pragmatism.

by **Aardvark** Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:10 pm

Yes, nurses just have to run around answering call bells every five seconds, lifting patients out of bed, transfering them to chairs or the bathroom, cleaning up any mess caused by loose bowels.

Yes they have much easier work :serious:

by Nihil Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:13 pm

actually, yes,

doctors may not have to do that, but they have the surgery, paper work, and such.

nursing maybe stressful, but it is not like being a doctor, where you have to stay sharp in attention, do accurate surgery, have the lives of patients on your hands, and then the paper work

by **Aardvark** Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:16 pm

Most doctors delegate that paperwork to techs and nurses, you can ask them, I know quite a few of them. As for the surgery, I won't deny that's intensive, but then again they have a team of people to help, including other doctors who can take over. Most nurses have to lift and transfer patients alone, and it causes a lot of back problems. As for patient loads, nurses screen patients way before doctors get to them, so they have an equal load there.

by Nihil Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:18 pm

I know some doctors too, and I've seen the paperwork they do!

sure they screen patients, but that doesn't require active knowledge, just a cursory knowledge of what they should know.

by **Aardvark** Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:21 pm

This isn't about knowledge, it's about work. Every time I go to a doctors office I spend as much or more time being screened by the nurse then I do talking with the Doctor. And do you seriously think Doctors are the only ones with paperwork? Do you actually KNOW nurses? My mother, and several of my friend's mothers were nurses, and the mountain if paperwork isn't that different and the Doctors can delegate a LOT of it to the nurses and techs around him.

by Nihil Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:26 pm

A common complaint is that doctors these days are spending more time doing clerical tasks.

Examples include filling out pre-authorization forms, talking to health plans for pre-certifications on imaging studies, and spending time jumping through bureaucratic hoops. Generally, you do not need a medical degree to do these tasks.

Bob Doherty points to a study that gives some numbers to back up the claims. Primary care doctors spend about 3.5 hours a week doing paperwork, compared to 2.1 hours for surgical specialists. Each doctor is backed up by clerical support staff, who do 7.2 hours of work per doctor daily.

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/05/how-much-time-do-doctors-spend-on-paperwork.html

clerical support staff, not nurses.

Also, the nurses do that weighing you, temperature, and that stuff because the doctors are actually spending more time with you, The time i spend talking to the doctor is usually greater than that of the nurse, and besides, the doctors have check up on stuff in the lab.

by **Aardvark** Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:29 pm

Clerical support staff includes nurses and medical technicians, sorry. And it's not hard to pull up the results on a computer, it takes mine all of 20 seconds to check my entire history, then another minute to write my scrip, ask if I have problems, and send me out the door. The nurses take all my measurements, check for any history changes, and notify the doctor that I'm ready which takes about 5-6 minutes.

by **Disturbed** Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:31 pm

both jobs are hard. My father is a doctor and he has a shitload of work. But yes both jobs have various difficulty levels, my dad ends up running to the hospital 2:00 in the night every day because of lazy and incompetent nurses. And most nurses don't know what the hell their supposed to be doing without a doctor. BUT, yes that does show whose more good. And nihil, u just quoted urself again for no reason, I said CHANCES are more lower class (not 100% poverty stricken necessarily) would be the good ones, hto rich ppl can be good, but it takes a lot more character, which almost noone has thanks to society, for a upper/ upper middle class person to be charitable or morally good. The poor person has much more reason in that he has hope of some better in life or some religious reward if he does good and has nothing to lose from it and everything to gain. For upper classes they think its just an inconvenience. And ppl these days, esp in Western countries, just look on and will never help. There was this guy getting on this bus who looked desperate, he had no change for the ride but tried to get on but has to stay off. I rushed to offer money before I realized I was falling just short but everyone else was just sitting there, watching as if though it's some kind of entertainment and one guy went as far to suggest it was quite good to have stuff like that to break the monotony. I mean, it seems ppl's inner sense of helping and good has been totally killed.

by Nihil Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:34 pm

lol, that doesn't happen where i go,

besides i checked the job description:

People who work in the clerical field handle a lot of paperwork and incoming work requests, so their organizational skills must be above satisfactory. Clerical support staff are generally able to multitask by completing several jobs at once such as faxing, copying, filing and performing general tasks around the office. Many executives rely on secretaries and administrative staff to type letters, set appointments and complete clerical duties that arise throughout the work day.

nothing about being a nurse in there.

doctors have paper work, they have to do prescription, they have to know which medicine is proper, which does what, and so on, like I said before, they need to do operations, work at the lab, etc. while the nurse does the things that require no extensive medicinal background in research and practice.

by **Disturbed** Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:38 pm

yes, nurses have to go through less of the hell that is American medical school to get there

and no they are not. I'm not saying other countries don't have their problems, actually most are worse than the West in many other regards. But, the humanity is slowly being killed. U can see for urself, every entertainment industry is aiming at killing any sense of humanity and conscience that a person has left. And I've said this before: not everything is as it seems regarding terrorists, at least try and find things outside what ur supercontrolled media tells u. And yes other countries have harsh media policies as well, but they still allow foreign hosted channels and those are very helpful. Did u knw that Al Jazeera was attacked and stopped from broadcasting in USA when they tried? But BBC, Fox, NBC etc. all broadcast worldwide without anyone stopping or attacking them?

Anyways, back on topic, I remember saying ppl showcasing good as bad and bad as good, and that's what's going on. You won't know good when u see it because ppl will make it look like the devil or some insecure person or something that u don't want to associate urself with. U don't even know it but u subconsciously start shunning good deeds, for no reason. Go to the countries that u called poor and the poor ppl within will look like angels after u see the cruelty and disgusting way in which the rich carry out their business.

AND GUYS WHY THE HELL ARE U DISCUSSING TECHNICALITIES OF NURSES AND DOCTORS??? It was a fucking example, maybe there was a slight technical error, but the example was still valid and I see where it wes coming from

by Nihil Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:40 pm

Disturbed wrote:both jobs are hard. My father is a doctor and he has a shitload of work. But yes both jobs have various difficulty levels, my dad ends up running to the hospital 2:00 in the night every day because of lazy and incompetent nurses. And most nurses don't know what the hell their supposed to be doing without a doctor. BUT, yes that does show whose more good. And nihil, u just quoted urself again for no reason, I said CHANCES are more lower class (not 100% poverty stricken necessarily) would be the good ones, hto rich ppl can be good, but it takes a lot more character, which almost noone has thanks to society, for a upper/ upper middle class person to be charitable or morally good. The poor person has much more reason in that he has hope of some better in life or some religious reward if he does good and has nothing to lose from it and everything to gain. For upper classes they think its just an inconvenience. And ppl these days, esp in Western countries, just look on and will never help. There was this guy getting on this bus who looked desperate, he had no change for the ride but tried to get on but has to stay off. I rushed to offer money before I realized I was falling just short but everyone else was just sitting there, watching as if though it's some kind of entertainment and one guy went as far to suggest it was quite good to have stuff like that to break the monotony. I mean, it seems ppl's inner sense of helping and good has been totally killed.

And i said that you are wrong, that there are good people distributed equally throughout teh classes, thats what i thought i was conveying there. If you will criticize western countries, then i will criticize countries throughout the world!

I'll start with China, since she is the easiest, doesn't give nearly enough to poor people, is so mercantilist, that they cause appreciation of their own currency for their own benefit and at other countries expenses.

Terrorists usually come from lower income places, Yemen, Afghanistan, ETC

also, that person isn't necesssarily poor, just short on change, and, you know, I find it hard to believe that that actually happened, People don't just sit there, I can tell you from other experiences that people actually do try to help.

by **Aardvark** Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:42 pm

Disturbed wrote:My father is a doctor and he has a shitload of work. But yes both jobs have various difficulty levels, my dad ends up running to the hospital 2:00 in the night every day because of lazy and incompetent nurses. And most nurses don't know what the hell their supposed to be doing without a doctor.

Don't know what nurses you have, every single one I've met has been fully competent, amiable, and sympathetic. If the nurses your dad has are bad then I understand your perspective, but they're not all like that, most are not like that. They're restricted from acting by many HIPPA regulations, and have to call in doctors or risk getting sued, but there have also been times when I've seen a nurse diagnose a disease before the doctor there.

nihil wrote:People who work in the clerical field handle a lot of paperwork and incoming work requests, so their organizational skills must be above satisfactory. Clerical support staff are generally able to multitask by completing several jobs at once such as faxing, copying, filing and performing general tasks around the office. Many executives rely on secretaries and administrative staff to type letters, set appointments and complete clerical duties that arise throughout the work day.

That's a Medical Technician, and many nurses also have office jobs like that, but then don't work on the floor doing lifting.

Nihil wrote:doctors have paper work, they have to do prescription, they have to know which medicine is proper, which does what, and so on, like I said before, they need to do operations, work at the lab, etc. while the nurse does the things that require no extensive medicinal background in research and practice.

You have no idea how wrong that is. Nurses have to know medicine interactions so that two doctors, too pompous to consult each other, don't end up killing the patient with conflicting medications. Go ahead, ask a floor nurse if she's had to stop a medication because it conflicted and the doctor missed it. Nurses have to have extensive medical training, not as much as doctors, but they still have to have enough. And doctors don't do Lab work, lab technicians do, most doctors wouldn't be caught dead in a lab unless it was a research lab.

by Nihil Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:48 pm

That second thing, that is the actual job description.

and lastly, thats not true, lol, you make it sound like doctors are only human, and nurses their savior. Mistakes happen, yes, but often, no, that is why there are nurses.

Here is the job description for a General Practitioner doctor

Job description
General practitioners (GPs) provide primary and continuing medical care for patients and are usually the first contact for patients needing medical services. They take account of physical, emotional and social factors when diagnosing illness and recommending the required treatment. Patients may be referred to hospital clinics for further assessment and/or treatment.

GPs may run specialist clinics within the practice for patients with specific conditions. They increasingly work as part of a team alongside other health care professionals to discuss care options for patients and their families and help patients to take responsibility for their own health.

GPs who are partners in a practice are also responsible for the running of the practice, which involves a range of administrative activities, such as employing staff, managing contracts and working within strict budgets.

Typical work activities include: YOU DON"T NEED TO READ THIS ALL LOL,

responding to medical/health problems presented by patients including history taking, diagnosis, investigation, treatment and referral as appropriate;
maintaining confidentiality and impartiality;
commissioning health care by liaising with medical professionals in the community and hospitals;
promoting health education in conjunction with other health professionals;
organising preventative medical programmes for individual patients;
providing specialist clinics for specific conditions or for certain groups, e.g., diabetes, smoking cessation, new babies;
meeting targets set by the government for specific treatments, e.g., child immunisations;
discussing the development of new pharmaceutical products with pharmaceutical sales representatives;
managing resources to service targets as effectively as possible - for example, using ‘Choose and Book’;
using IT skills - some practices have one partner who specialises in the use of IT within the practice, but all will be expected to have basic abilities for work such as maintaining patients' records using specific packages;
keeping up to date with medical developments, new drugs, treatments and medications, including complementary medicine;
observing and assessing the work of trainee general practitioners (GPs) and medical students and teaching at medical schools or hospitals;
maintaining a portfolio of continuing professional development (CPD) activities.
Partners in a practice may decide to expand their career portfolio and specialise in a specific area of medicine, such as obstetrics and gynaecology, psychiatry or orthopaedics. They may also specialise in areas such as IT, human resource management, medical education, or training.

by **Disturbed** Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:54 pm

Disturbed wrote:yes, nurses have to go through less of the hell that is American medical school to get there

and no they are not. I'm not saying other countries don't have their problems, actually most are worse than the West in many other regards. But, the humanity is slowly being killed. U can see for urself, every entertainment industry is aiming at killing any sense of humanity and conscience that a person has left. And I've said this before: not everything is as it seems regarding terrorists, at least try and find things outside what ur supercontrolled media tells u. And yes other countries have harsh media policies as well, but they still allow foreign hosted channels and those are very helpful. Did u knw that Al Jazeera was attacked and stopped from broadcasting in USA when they tried? But BBC, Fox, NBC etc. all broadcast worldwide without anyone stopping or attacking them?

Anyways, back on topic, I remember saying ppl showcasing good as bad and bad as good, and that's what's going on. You won't know good when u see it because ppl will make it look like the devil or some insecure person or something that u don't want to associate urself with. U don't even know it but u subconsciously start shunning good deeds, for no reason. Go to the countries that u called poor and the poor ppl within will look like angels after u see the cruelty and disgusting way in which the rich carry out their business.

AND GUYS WHY THE HELL ARE U DISCUSSING TECHNICALITIES OF NURSES AND DOCTORS??? It was a fucking example, maybe there was a slight technical error, but the example was still valid and I see where it wes coming from

idk why this was befoer nihil's post when I posted it later

by **Aardvark** Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:55 pm

No I'm just ripping them off their pedestal and bringing them back down to a job. They're not all-knowing, perfect, and under-appreciated members of society. They're over-payed, human, over-emphasized people. Doctors may have to know more, but they still screw up a lot, that's why nurses are there, a second check and a way to implement the doctor's orders. Don't drop nurses because they haven't been in school as well, odds are they could still save your life, and drive your medical IQ into the ground. They work hard, they're educated, and they have a much more physically intensive job then doctors. Doctors are the extreme, educated to be the ultimate diagnostic tool, but because they have such a high degree of intelligence they do much less physical work.

by **Disturbed** Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:58 pm

they're both extremely tasking jobs, but nurses get paid less. Not all doctor are paid a lot, it depends on what kind u are. Dentists and opthamologists for instance, are overpaid imo

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