Mr.O

in order for socalism to work, there could only be one political unit, one currency or do away with currency all together. Would be a star trek type society. The problem with socialism, is that you eventually run out of other people's money...

While no currency (read money) would be nice, it will never happen. too many greedy people in the world. One of the things that motivates a human being is bettering ones self to better your station in life. the fight to move up, the competition to survive and thrive. No money/chance to better your lot in life, no motivation to even work. Then the government has to step in and say 'you do this and you do that' we all work til its done no matter how long it takes, and since you are my friend, you get to stand here and watch them work...

soran wrote:

Ptolemy wrote:I do not want to be experimented on. there is no where that i can see that socialism has worked. pure or hybrid.

The only way socialism will work, is if it is global. global currency, global government. and that scares me more than anything else.

too bad dude, youve been experimented on since you were born. this political system is based off of experimenting with ideas. if it dont work and screws up the nation, throw it away and move on the next idea. so i wouldn't count on the whole not wanting to be experimented on

Capitalism worked in this country for several hundred years in fact every where its principles have been applied it is only the introduction of socialist ideals has slowed progress and now has slowed it even more. Lots of us would rather not live under socialism. Because i do not want to have to pay for your screw ups, be that your health care, birth control or food because you do not want to go to work. Ya call me heartless i know its coming. if you are fit and able you should be working and i have seen to much able bodied people on government assistance.

The Exile wrote:
Lol is that all

I kill you

w/e...

Ptolemy wrote:in order for socalism to work, there could only be one political unit, one currency or do away with currency all together. Would be a star trek type society. The problem with socialism, is that you eventually run out of other people's money...

While no currency (read money) would be nice, it will never happen. too many greedy people in the world. One of the things that motivates a human being is bettering ones self to better your station in life. the fight to move up, the competition to survive and thrive. No money/chance to better your lot in life, no motivation to even work. Then the government has to step in and say 'you do this and you do that' we all work til its done no matter how long it takes, and since you are my friend, you get to stand here and watch them work...

You have not answered my question. Or if you have, your answer is incomplete and conflicting. No political or economical attitude has ever worked in the history of mankind in its pure form. Capitalism, socialism, etc etc have no example of such. Where you see capitalism, i see a amalgamation of various partial attitudes, fitted to better the situation. Your absolutist view would lead to a dessecration and corruption of society. Capitalism at its purest, is INCREDIBLY abusable. You yourself say that we want to better ourselves, and in a world tha does not keep you in check, you can better yourself gradually to the point of endangering others. The closest real world example is the creation of monopolies, wich come by due to liberalistic attitudes towards market control. not only that, but once the monopoly establishes, destroying the ability to strive for yourself, it also stagnates the market n KILLS IT, crumbling the entire system. that is why when companies like microsoft came about, governments had to intervene to avoid them from becoming monopolies, because they posed a threat. those interventions are what you would call of socialist nature.

Your zero toleration for anything other than capitalism is wrong, if what you seek is betterment of life for everyone. I dont believe any form of economy can work when you use simply one view point for everything.

In an addendum, economical theories are a recent thing. saying america has survived on capitalism for hundreds of years is wrong on 2 fronts.

1. Economy at the time of Americas creation was different from what it is now. Market was too simple to associate it properly with capitalism or socialism. Sure you could associate some things, but things ran too differently to paint it in the same way.
2. Even if you find similarities, by the same standards, you could find social attitudes in newborn America at the same time that you find capitalistic ones. Anything that the government does that puts its hand into the economy and regulations is socialistic by nature.

That is why i find that the attitude you showed in the first post was non sensical. You cannot find pure water in the world. You can call it pure all you want, but it technically isnt and never was.

Well I apologize for simplifying my argument for those that are not as well versed in economics. Free market capitalism has been in existence since the beginning of time in one form or another. Anytime you buy and sell goods that is capitalism. Socialism was tried in this country when the pilgrims first landed on the continent and it cost the settlement half of their population.

From each according to their ability to each according to their need. This approach encourages those that are able to work, not to. Because it does not matter if you work or not, you will get fed. The principals of free market capitalism were present at the foundation of the US and are still present today. Your statement that it is not true makes no sense to me. The BASIS of the economy was different yes, but the principals are the same. When this country was established we had an agricultural based economy, that has shifted several times in the past 200+ years. That does not change that the economy runs on free market principals.

The free market and the ability to market and profit from ideas gave us computers, cell phones and many other conveniences.

Socialism has given us generations of people that have been on government assistance with no ambition to better themselves, the crisis in Greece, Portugal and the rest of Europe.

Capitalism creates wealth and gives us all a chance to make money from our ideas.

Socialism stifles creativity and saps the will to work. Why would you want to work when someone else will provide all your needs?

Any system can be corrupted and abused. Which is why there will always be the need for some regulation. this is an argument you and i have had many times and i will say it again. Your statement that it is not true does not make it so. Advancements come because people are free to develop and profit from their ideas. people will profit from their ideas when there is a market for those ideas. The free market is fickle how ever and what is in demand today may not be in demand tomorrow.

And you ruined it by the end. By having to regulate it, you are implementing socialism. So really, your country never had pure capitalism. There is no, and never was, pure capitalism in this world. nor was there ever a country who successfully implemented pure socialism wihtout recurring to capitalistic and free market ideas. You think that my country or any country in europe with socialistic ideas has to pay for nothing? We still have to work to get a house n food. We still have to work hard to be successfull. Sure there are benefits, and people abuse the social insurance system, but as with anything, there is no perfection. Your country only advanced science in the last century because it found itself in a position of power and arms war, not because it was capitalistic. Dont confuse the two things. Europe has lived in mainly socialistic ideals for many decades now, and it has sustained itself quite nicely. And because you find one flaw with the system, and you find a crisis, you directly blame it on a partial input from socialism? You need to show me the direct correlation, otherwise you are just filing your ideals into facts. I could say that the capitalistic ideals were the cause of the Great Depression. Unregulated free market sold itself into oblivion. Guess what you did after that? Yup, you implemented the social idea of the government keeping the market from blowing up. So really i could use your own approach and say capitalism never worked. It caused the Great Depression and causes unjust chances to succeed in a market.

Your problem is that you see the two systems, and other systems other than capitalism, as black n white, without being capable of acknowledging some of the good things one has to offer, and ignoring the bad things another one has. I am not defending any one of them. I see them all as tools that should be used apropriately with the situation.

i believe that a country shouldnt try to implement one single economy, but try create a, "mixing pot" i could say, of economic ideals that way it would sustainable. but thatd be another one that is in theory Utopian, but realistically impossible

impossible? why thats what every economy in the world is right now you fool.

read the first sentence of what i said blind one. Governments may use some ideas of different economic theories, but they still try to implement one single type of economy. they arnt OPEN to using different types willingly unless forced to.

soran wrote:read the first sentence of what i said blind one. Governments may use some ideas of different economic theories, but they still try to implement one single type of economy. they arnt OPEN to using different types willingly unless forced to.

LOL why do you care what the government SAYS or WANTS? its what they DO that counts, and what they DO is implement various mixed economical and social strategies. I dont care if youre a capitalist, you are THANKFUL that they put regulatory measures in the stock market to stop another Depression. measures wich are of socialistic nature. Economy isnt about ideals or morals, its about efficiency and safety. Not at the cost of ideals or morals however. Economy that necessitates the breaking of ethics and loss of humanity is a failed economy. A successful one works without the need to compromise such moralities.

im not a crazy patriot so i dont think capitalism is the most amazing thing ever. yes it has its advantages, but so do others. and when a government SAYS what it WANTS, then it usually moves onto it doing what it WANTS.

the country ftw, the president sux.

Reptile wrote:the country ftw, the president sux.

ARGUMENTS =o

Since I dont feel like typing:






LOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLLLLOLOLOLOLOOOOOOOOOOOOOL



And as for the Big O:

And for those who are actually interested in Greece (Please, DO read this):

A prerevolutionary situation

Lenin pointed out long ago that there are four conditions for a revolutionary situation: 1) the ruling class should be split and in crisis, 2) the middle class should be vacillating between the bourgeoisie and the working class, 3) the masses should be prepared to fight and make the greatest sacrifices to take power and 4) a revolutionary party and leadership that is prepared to lead the working class to the conquest of power.

In Greece at the present time all these factors are in existence except the last. The Greek ruling class is in crisis. It has no solutions to the present impasse. Its leading figures are a picture of impotence and indecision. They are being ground between the two gigantic millstones: on the one hand the merciless pressure of international Capital, on the other, the ferocious resistance of the masses.

The crisis of the ruling class is reflected in the crises and splits in every one of the governmental parties. Already forty parliamentarians have been expelled for not voting for the austerity plan. But disciplinary measures will solve nothing. It is like papering over the cracks in a wall caused by a massive seismic movement of the tectonic plates. The present government lacks all legitimacy in the eyes of the masses. It is a bankers’ government that was never elected by anybody.

The hatred of the bankers and the rich in general is universal. The general mood of revolt has spread to the middle classes who have seen their living standards driven down: the small business people who have been pushed into bankruptcy; the civil servants who have lost their jobs; the taxi drivers who face ruin. It is not true that the middle class is vacillating between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat. The Greek middle class has been forced by cruel necessity to take the road of revolution.

What about the working class? For the last two years, the proletariat of Greece has displayed enormous militancy and determination. There have been 17 general strikes, and numerous demonstrations and mass protests of all kinds. One must ask oneself: what more can we demand of the working class? What more do we expect?

It is true that the 48 hour general strike called by the union leaders last week was not a great success. Does this indicate that the mood of the working class is cooling off? Does it signify that the masses have become reconciled to the inevitable, and that the bourgeoisie has succeeded in re-establishing the necessary equilibrium? On the contrary, the old social and political equilibrium has been completely destroyed in Greece. It will not be restored easily or quickly.

How does one explain the reduced response to the call for a 48-hour general strike? The answer is very simple: the Greek workers have understood that strikes of one or two days solve nothing. There are certain situations in which mass strikes and demonstrations can force a government to change its policies. But this is not one of them.

The crisis is too deep to allow the bourgeois any room for manoeuvre. They will not abandon the course of action which, in any case, is being dictated to them from Berlin and Brussels.

The trade union leaders in Greece – like their counterparts in other countries – do not understand the seriousness of the situation. Though they regard themselves as supreme realists, they are in reality the blindest of the blind. They are living in a past that has already receded into the mists of history.

The union leaders imagined that with a little show of opposition, they could persuade the bourgeoisie to make some compromises with them. “After all, we are moderates, not revolutionaries”. But instead of compromises all they receive is a kick in the teeth.

The truth is that the union leaders used the tactic of one-day general strikes as a convenient way of allowing the masses to blow off steam. A one-day general strike is really only a demonstration. It can be useful in mobilizing the class, drawing in even the most backward and inert layers. On the streets, the workers feel their collective power and their confidence grows.

That is the positive side of a one-day general strike. But if the same thing is repeated endlessly, without showing any concrete results, the workers get tired of it. They can see that all these strikes have lost them a lot of money, but have not succeeded in their objective. They conclude that some stronger form of action is required. But what kind of action is that?

Here the question of leadership acquires a burning importance. Purely trade union methods cannot solve the problem, because the nature of the problem is not trade union but political. It is a question of class against class, of workers against bosses, rich against poor: ultimately, it is a question of state power.

The tactic of general strikes of one or two days has completely exhausted itself. The only possibility now is for an all-out general strike to bring down the government. But an all-out general strike is no longer a demonstration. It poses the question point blank: who is the master of the house? Who rules: you or us? In other words, it poses the question of power.

This is a question that none of the present leaders of the Left are prepared to pose. They are afraid to explain to the people of Greece what they need to know: that no solution to the problems of Greece is possible as long as the power is in the hands of a handful of wealthy parasites: bankers, capitalists, landlords and shipping magnates.

It is impossible to cure cancer with an aspirin. What is necessary is a genuine Left government – a workers’ government that is prepared to expropriate the bankers and big capitalists – both Greek and foreign – and introduce a nationalised planned economy, under the democratic control and administration of the working class.

In order to free the Greek economy from the stranglehold of foreign Capital, all debts must be repudiated and there should be a state monopoly of foreign trade. Drastic revolutionary measures should be taken against speculators and people who send their wealth abroad.

These are the prior conditions, without which no solution is possible. However, even these steps will not be enough. Under modern conditions, no country can save itself on purely national lines. Socialism in one country is a reactionary utopia, as the experience of the USSR and China clearly show. A socialist Greece should make an appeal to the workers of Europe to follow its example: throw off the yoke of Capital and unite in a European Socialist Federation, built on the solid foundations of equality and solidarity.

The only thing that stands between the working class and power is the lack of leadership. The polls indicate that the Left parties (Synaspismos, KKE and the Democratic Left) have over 40%. This shows that the working class is looking to the Left to solve its problems. But sectarian tactics prevents them from uniting for action. The KKE refuses to engage with other Left parties. They even called a separate demonstration on Sunday.

That is a fatal mistake. The working class demands united action against the capitalist class and a genuine socialist policy! What is required is the application of the Leninist policy of the United Front. Such a policy and programme would be sufficient to sweep the bourgeois parties into the dustbin of history where they belong.

Let our banner be that of socialism and proletarian internationalism. This is the only way forward for the workers of Greece, Europe and the whole world.

(Quoted from www.marxist.com: Link)

EXCEEEEPT THAT Greeces economic state has nothing to do with the attitude the economy has taken. You simply have no money. Socialism or capitalism, you guys are in an enormous debt and have no way of paying it without changing how youre spending it. Using the remaning funds to spread money equally tthru all the people, wich will mean no one will find the need to work, will just doom your country. And before you think your leaders n bankers have all the money, they dont. They just barely have enough to pay for their luxuries. And no, if they spread it thru the nation, it wouldnt be enough to keep 15 million people in a satisfying condition. You need to make smart spendings n savings, n you need to make people wanna spend money on greece. Not give everyone money equally and hope they will start spending it n working for it. I do love when marxists try and type long and complex texts to justify their lazy existence, when i can write their point in 3 paragraphs.

Furthermore Atlas, your country fell on a combination of things. In fact, greece PROSPERED a lot the last 30 years under a series of profitable measures, NOT socialistic ones. It still implemented a lot of socialist stuff, but many of the capitalist decisions made your country better, particularly in profitng from exporting and tourism. It fell because, 1) You got affected as everyone else did, by the American crisis in 2008/09. You simply were ill prepared for it. 2)You were conned by corrupt politicians wich crippled you at the worst time possible. These 2 things combined(Wich btw, have nth to do with your own economy) wrecked your country.

Also, this has little to do with Obama.

Dray The Fingerless wrote:EXCEEEEPT THAT Greeces economic state has nothing to do with the attitude the economy has taken. You simply have no money. Socialism or capitalism, you guys are in an enormous debt and have no way of paying it without changing how youre spending it. Using the remaning funds to spread money equally tthru all the people, wich will mean no one will find the need to work, will just doom your country. And before you think your leaders n bankers have all the money, they dont. They just barely have enough to pay for their luxuries. And no, if they spread it thru the nation, it wouldnt be enough to keep 15 million people in a satisfying condition. You need to make smart spendings n savings, n you need to make people wanna spend money on greece. Not give everyone money equally and hope they will start spending it n working for it. I do love when marxists try and type long and complex texts to justify their lazy existence, when i can write their point in 3 paragraphs.

Furthermore Atlas, your country fell on a combination of things. In fact, greece PROSPERED a lot the last 30 years under a series of profitable measures, NOT socialistic ones. It still implemented a lot of socialist stuff, but many of the capitalist decisions made your country better, particularly in profitng from exporting and tourism. It fell because, 1) You got affected as everyone else did, by the American crisis in 2008/09. You simply were ill prepared for it. 2)You were conned by corrupt politicians wich crippled you at the worst time possible. These 2 things combined(Wich btw, have nth to do with your own economy) wrecked your country.

Also, this has little to do with Obama.

THIS is where most people are wrong. The actual situation in Greece is that there are FORTUNES currently at the hands of men claiming it for themselves. I'm talking about a LOT of money and Greece actually has a good rate of productivity (I'm not sure I'm saying this right but I hope u get what I'm saying.) That money comes from tax and/or indisputably unreasonably high earnings which is then invested in pricate properties or is taken out of Greece. Plus, we prospered? When we signed to enter Europe ALL PROSPERITY CAME FROM LOANS (in secrecy as always). Btw, THERE WERE NO REFUNDS FOR THE UNENDING SLAVERY WE WERE PUT THROUGH during the war with the turks and the germans. Now germany is all over us tryin to make us pay. Giv us back what u took, all the men u slaughtered, then we'll see. During those times, there was no prosperity.

To be fair, you didnt get paid by germany because you were gonna use that money to fuel the stupid turkish war. I do agree Germany should of paid after the war ended, instead of forgetting about it. In that they failed. Also, where is your proof that there is a fortune in high hands? Furthermore, have you any reason, any substantial fact that the fortune they do get paid is in someway enough to cover for the unsurmountable debt and cost/profit issue you have? I find it hard to believe, since not even the hierarquies of american corporations have enough money to pay that debt, i doubt greek corporations would. Greeces productivity rate can be as high as it wants, but you pay substantially more in the process. Your taxes n prices for everything are inflated in paralel with your productivity, wich btw, has plummeted the last few years.

And i said last 30 years. Wich is proven by historical evidence. Greece was in little trouble in the last 30 years. Before that it is hard to pinpoint reasons or even assume that you were in a good situation. But in these last few decades, you were fine. The problem is, in case a crisis would happen, asi t did in 08/09, your country would be in a bad position if it came due to the way you gathered profit n stability, wich just got worse when your political figures turned out to be fucking morons of corrupt stature. It doesnt help that the current ones are idiots as well who cant do maths. But oh well, start choosing parties that know how to handle money efficiently for the country. Democracy is a double edged sword and having an old ignorant population doesnt help. Wich is why i consider Greece a 3rd world country now. The education of the average greek is astoundingly low, and the population being as old as it is doesnt help, so you end up voting on the pretty ones.

Dray The Fingerless wrote:To be fair, you didnt get paid by germany because you were gonna use that money to fuel the stupid turkish war. I do agree Germany should of paid after the war ended, instead of forgetting about it. In that they failed. Also, where is your proof that there is a fortune in high hands? Furthermore, have you any reason, any substantial fact that the fortune they do get paid is in someway enough to cover for the unsurmountable debt and cost/profit issue you have? I find it hard to believe, since not even the hierarquies of american corporations have enough money to pay that debt, i doubt greek corporations would. Greeces productivity rate can be as high as it wants, but you pay substantially more in the process. Your taxes n prices for everything are inflated in paralel with your productivity, wich btw, has plummeted the last few years.

And i said last 30 years. Wich is proven by historical evidence. Greece was in little trouble in the last 30 years. Before that it is hard to pinpoint reasons or even assume that you were in a good situation. But in these last few decades, you were fine. The problem is, in case a crisis would happen, asi t did in 08/09, your country would be in a bad position if it came due to the way you gathered profit n stability, wich just got worse when your political figures turned out to be fucking morons of corrupt stature. It doesnt help that the current ones are idiots as well who cant do maths. But oh well, start choosing parties that know how to handle money efficiently for the country. Democracy is a double edged sword and having an old ignorant population doesnt help. Wich is why i consider Greece a 3rd world country now. The education of the average greek is astoundingly low, and the population being as old as it is doesnt help, so you end up voting on the pretty ones.

You are completely right in the 30 past years' prosperity but, like I said, it was only because of the loans with which our economy cherished. Also, yes, I do have proof that there would be gigantic amounts of money. Yes, indeed maybe they would not suffise. But they sure as hell would put us in the right direction instead of taking more loans lol xP