Re: Ban Appeals

by **Ptolemy** Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:39 pm

Dray The Fingerless wrote:Well Serv, just PM Spidey your name next time. Hes not like me or Lay, he doesnt necessarily know its you just by tlaking to you. The other admins COULD of helped but oh well. Aard, unban him please.

This has to be this way, because i cannot assume everyone who doesnt have a tag is under alias. This is to prevent intruders. If i dont know who you are, im gonna assume your an intruder. Thats how admins should judge things in the server. It does not say in a law Ara that you must give your name to an admin, but it does say the Clan War is Private and only members and official guests can be in it. If you do not know if someone is a member or official guest, then it is best to play safe then leave them there. Serv could of PM'd Spidey his name, im not gonna back out Spidey's decision, however, Ara and Ptolemy, if they knew it was Serv, should of told Spidey. Im leaving this unwritten because if i write this law down, people will also start saying "I wasnt flaming. I wanna read in the rules where it says what i said is flaming. I dont consider this flaming." And then your gonna have to write down EVERY possible SITUATON of rule breaking. Instead, i leave it to admin judgement. And in this case, the judgement is if you dont know who it is, ask any fellow admins first, then ask the person, then if he does not respond, treat him as an intruder.

So we are not serious about enforcing the access to the CW? then why do we have a PW? He decided he didn't respect our admins enough to give hhis name, so he was banned. should be banned for a couple of days for this.

I should not have to guess, oh thats serv or who ever, if you do not id yourself when asked you should get kicked. if you come back and still refuse i will ban...

I do not care who you are, and i would not know unless you are wearing tags...

by **Champion** Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:44 pm

If you have admin and you are on the CW server you will respond to another admin immediately. PERIOD. If you do not identify yourself or if you misidentify yourself you will lose your admin permanently. I dont care who you are or who you think you are, if you abuse the trust JvS has put in you to use your powers responsibly you will lose that trust most likely indefinitely and may even be banned from the clan itself (meaning you will have to start over from the bottom). Please remember we are all friends here, and if someone is treating you poorly its most likely a personality conflict or a misunderstanding and nothing but some healthy distance and respect cannot solve.

by **Dray The Fingerless** Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:46 pm

Oh also another thing. There is a command that lets you see who is admining in the server. use that command before saying anything. The person you dont know might be an admin undercover.

by **Talkin'boutFreedom** Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:12 pm

I still don't see how not giving an answer is disrespectful, considering we haven't had an ''intruder'' since Keiji and only have had REPORTS of people leaking the password. That's more of flexing your admin warrior powas cause the situation is basically, ''Oh you don't want to answer me? *QQ*'' Ban. Nothing disrespectful of remaining silent

by **Dray The Fingerless** Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:18 pm

I am not enforcing this based on disrespect Serv. Im basing it on the other argument. Today it was you, tomorrow itll be someone trying to be funny and hide from the admins. Spidey did not know you, so you could of PM'd him your name and it would all be over. He is new at admining as well, so you should of taken double consideration. Again, its not about 'disrespect'.

by **Spidey** Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:22 pm

i am sorry serv... i didn't mean for you to get banned... i personally cannot ban anyone... best i can do is force spec and lock it so you can't go anywhere ... which is what my plan was... i was not trying to "flex my new power" in any way shape or form... i was told if i don't know who someone is to ask... i asked ... you didn't answer... i was told i should treat anyone i don't know on that server as an intruder... so i did... i meant no disrespect to you whatsoever... i will in the future keep the questions private

i would like to partially disagree with you dray... stuff like flaming/teamkilling is still a judgement call... but i think this one thing should be written down so that people don't get banned for "no reason" and can't cry admin abuse... i know you don't care about people doing that... but i think it would be nice to lessen it a bit.

by **Dray The Fingerless** Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:24 pm

My reasons are really simple and understandable if you dont over think things and stop caring so much about the complaints regarding it.

by **Talkin'boutFreedom** Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:25 pm

Dray The Fingerless wrote:I am not enforcing this based on disrespect Serv. Im basing it on the other argument. Today it was you, tomorrow itll be someone trying to be funny and hide from the admins. Spidey did not know you, so you could of PM'd him your name and it would all be over. He is new at admining as well, so you should of taken double consideration. Again, its not about 'disrespect'.

That was almost basically the entire arguement, being ''disrespectful'' to the Admins. Anyways I've just been against enforcing this unwritten rule since last last summer or something of that sorts. No one was being funny, I simply just came on and started flipping around on the map then the whole thing started, didn't log into admin either

Also what dray says, shouldn't be saying sorry for anything. If you're gonna make a decision, it should be your balls to the walls and to go with whatever decision you made. Not like any harm was committed anyways

by **Dray The Fingerless** Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:27 pm

Its just for playing safe. No system is perfect, but we can do the best we can.

by **Ptolemy** Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:28 pm

Spiderman wrote:i am sorry serv... i didn't mean for you to get banned... i personally cannot ban anyone... best i can do is force spec and lock it so you can't go anywhere ... which is what my plan was... i was not trying to "flex my new power" in any way shape or form... i was told if i don't know who someone is to ask... i asked ... you didn't answer... i was told i should treat anyone i don't know on that server as an intruder... so i did... i meant no disrespect to you whatsoever... i will in the future keep the questions private

i would like to partially disagree with you dray... stuff like flaming/teamkilling is still a judgement call... but i think this one thing should be written down so that people don't get banned for "no reason" and can't cry admin abuse... i know you don't care about people doing that... but i think it would be nice to lessen it a bit.

First you do not have to apologize for enforcing the rules.
Second if you are on the CW and are asked who you are because you do not have tags on you deserve what you get.
Third accessing the CW by those that are not authorized is against the rules already.

If anything i should have waited to see what you had in mind for punishment, for that i have to apologize to you. Ara was sitting accross the table and had no problem with my proposed course of action so i just took action. I will not apologize as this is not an abuse of power, it is protecting the CW from those that are not supposed to be there.

You cannot just assume that someone is supposed to be there because they are and, if presented again, i would do the same thing...

by **Spidey** Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:32 pm

i accept your apology ptol... no harm done

serv... glad ur not mad.. and i wasn't apologising for my actions... i stand by what i did which was kick you twice i believe... i was apologising for you getting banned... which as ptol pointed out was not my fault and had nothing to do with me... not a big deal... hope we all learned something out of this Smile

by **Talkin'boutFreedom** Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:35 pm

All gungho but what are you protecting people from? I know this is basically ''preventation'' of some sorts but not telling an admin your name, ban worthy? Ha. This is also more for the admins ''safety'' than anything, usually no one has a problem with Padawan alias till a high and mighty admin must come in, flexing their admin powas, demanding answers.

Edit: I've gone on much more drastic ''crusades'' than this

by **Champion** Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:41 pm

Being an Admin makes you a "marked" police officer to other admins. They have a right to know who has power on the server they are admining. If they ask and you do not answer, you are not respecting the trust that was put in them by the clan.

That said the inquiring admin should also respect any undercover work another admin is doing and not reveal who he may be. Only other admins need know who the admins are. Admins should use /amsay to talk to one antoher.

by **Spidey** Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:45 pm

had he answered me... i would have kept it private... prob said something in public along the lines of "ok you are free to stay" so everyone else knew that i knew who it was... i also didn't know serv was an admin... but oh well... lesson learned i hope Smile

by **Champion** Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:48 pm

We have a list of current admins in our admin forum. Just try to use better judgement next time Spiderman, and you are still learning as you go. The clan and its rules can be complex at times and I like to give admins a lot of leeway when it comes to judgement calls but admins should always respect other admins and the decisions they make. Only if an admin breaks a rule while administering his punishment should any action be taken.

I dont want to make this more complex than it is though.

by **Talkin'boutFreedom** Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:50 pm

Champion wrote:Being an Admin makes you a "marked" police officer to other admins. They have a right to know who has power on the server they are admining. If they ask and you do not answer, you are not respecting the trust that was put in them by the clan.

That said the inquiring admin should also respect any undercover work another admin is doing and not reveal who he may be. Only other admins need know who the admins are. Admins should use /amsay to talk to one antoher.

I guess but I didn't log into admin or anything, would've liked to just stay anonymous

by **Champion** Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:52 pm

Talkin'boutFreedom wrote:
Champion wrote:Being an Admin makes you a "marked" police officer to other admins. They have a right to know who has power on the server they are admining. If they ask and you do not answer, you are not respecting the trust that was put in them by the clan.

That said the inquiring admin should also respect any undercover work another admin is doing and not reveal who he may be. Only other admins need know who the admins are. Admins should use /amsay to talk to one antoher.

I guess but I didn't log into admin or anything, would've liked to just stay anonymous

I am not sure entirely of what happened, but it looks like spiderman just got a little overzealous.

by **Talkin'boutFreedom** Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:54 pm

Spiderman wrote:here is my log taken from UU.. if i did anything wrong please let me know

11:03:51 PM - JvS+Spidey+JK: who is pad?
11:03:51 PM - Padawan killed himself
11:03:56 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: I dunno
11:03:57 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: ask
11:04:04 PM - JvS+Spidey+JK: who are you pad?
11:04:31 PM - Padawan: uhh
11:04:49 PM - [JvS+Spidey+JK]: so..
11:04:55 PM - {JvS}Ptolemy[JT]: in case you missed it Spidey is our newest enforcer
11:04:59 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: ^
11:05:04 PM - Padawan: and?
11:05:05 PM - JvS CoG JP: LOL
11:05:09 PM - JvS CoG JP: Epic skit
11:05:09 PM - Padawan entered the game
11:05:12 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: well
11:05:16 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: he can kick you if you don't tell him
11:05:18 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: otherwise
11:05:20 PM - {JvS}Ptolemy[JT] was sabered by JvS CoG JP
11:05:22 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: if you don't tell him who you are
11:05:23 PM - [JvS+Spidey+JK]: im guessing the first thing i should do is bind (key) amlogin (pass) right?
11:05:26 PM - Padawan: hardly, there's no official clause that requires it
11:05:28 PM - JvS*Aragorn|D was sabered by JvS CoG JP
11:05:28 PM - {JvS}Ptolemy[JT]: if you do not tell him who you are he has the right to kick you
11:05:31 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: we assume you're not supposed to be here
11:05:48 PM - JvS CoG JP: this isnt a democracy brochacho
11:05:53 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: well
11:05:57 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: we can kick you as admings
11:05:57 PM - Padawan: partially
11:06:00 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: if you don't tell us
11:06:01 PM - {JvS}Ptolemy[JT]: the clause that requires it is the respect you are supposed to show the admins
11:06:05 PM - Padawan: yeah
11:06:16 PM - JvS CoG JP was sabered by JvS*Aragorn|D
11:06:17 PM - Padawan: there's no disrespect in saying nothing
11:06:24 PM - JvS CoG JP: ya there is
11:06:27 PM - JvS CoG JP: like ur ignoring them
11:06:30 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: ^
11:06:30 PM - JvS CoG JP: cuz they dont matter
11:06:34 PM - Padawan: or
11:06:35 PM - {JvS}Ptolemy[JT]: then there will be no disrespect when you are kicked
11:06:40 PM - Padawan: aighty
11:06:53 PM - JvS CoG JP killed himself
11:06:55 PM - Padawan: we've had like
11:06:56 PM - Padawan: 3-4 cases
11:06:58 PM - JvS+Spidey+JK is logged in as a Server Enforcer.
11:06:58 PM - Padawan: all shot down
11:07:08 PM - JvS+Spidey+JK: hey it worked
11:07:12 PM - JvS CoG JP: rlly
11:07:18 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: well
11:07:23 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: it doesn't matter
11:07:31 PM - {JvS}Ptolemy[JT]: tell you what pm me who you are or i will kick you
11:07:31 PM - JvS CoG JP: i dun think it's serv
11:07:33 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: Spidey can still kick you if he chooses if you don't tell him
11:07:36 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: It's not Serv
11:07:43 PM - {JvS}Ptolemy[JT]: then you can see who is sympathetic
11:07:53 PM - Padawan: wait wha
11:07:53 PM - {JvS}Ptolemy[JT] is logged in as a Server Regulator.
11:08:05 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: PM ptolemy your nick or he kicks you
11:08:05 PM - {JvS}Ptolemy[JT]: didn't stutter
11:08:09 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: basically
11:08:15 PM - [Console] - amstatus
11:08:16 PM - 0 ---> JvS CoG JP Plugin:1.4 beta3
11:08:16 PM - 1 ---> JvS*Aragorn|DL Plugin:1.4 beta3
11:08:16 PM - 2 ---> {JvS}Ptolemy[JT] Plugin:1.3
11:08:16 PM - 3 ---> Padawan Plugin:No Plugin
11:08:16 PM - 4 ---> JvS+Spidey+JK Plugin:1.3
11:08:19 PM - JvS CoG JP: im rofling so hard
11:08:23 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: =o
11:08:27 PM - Padawan: Basically I know the clauses and there are none, Thing along with numerous admins have failed with that btw
11:08:35 PM - [Console] - say ok
11:08:35 PM - say_team_mod
11:08:35 PM - say_team
11:08:35 PM - say
11:08:35 PM - [Console] - say ok
11:08:35 PM - JvS+Spidey+JK: ok
11:08:36 PM - JvS CoG JP: oh shit
11:08:37 PM - JvS CoG JP: nae card
11:08:39 PM - JvS CoG JP: name*
11:08:43 PM - [Console] - amkick 3
11:08:44 PM - Padawan was kicked.
11:08:48 PM - Padawan connected
11:08:55 PM - JvS+Spidey+JK: that simple i suppose
11:08:58 PM - Padawan: oh shi aboose
11:09:00 PM - Admin Council : JvS*Aragorn|DL
11:09:00 PM - Admin Knight : {JvS}Ptolemy[JT]
11:09:00 PM - Admin Instructor : JvS+Spidey+JK
11:09:00 PM - Padawan entered the game
11:09:08 PM - JvS CoG JP: all 3 levels
11:09:09 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL is logged in as a Server Admin.
11:09:10 PM - JvS CoG JP: =D
11:09:11 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: =o
11:09:12 PM - JvS+Spidey+JK: who are you pad?
11:09:14 PM - JvS CoG JP entered the game
11:09:21 PM - Padawan: Pada
11:09:24 PM - [Console] - !chatstyle spidey
11:09:24 PM - !chatstyle
11:09:24 PM - !chatstyles
11:09:24 PM - [Console] - !chatstyle spidey
11:09:25 PM - JvS+Spidey+JK: Chatstyles - Chatstyle set to Spidey
11:09:28 PM - [JvS*Aragorn|DL]: kick him
11:09:29 PM - JvS+Spidey+JK: <*oh ok*>
11:09:42 PM - [Console] - amstatus
11:09:42 PM - 0 ---> JvS CoG JP Plugin:1.4 beta3
11:09:42 PM - 1 ---> JvS*Aragorn|DL Plugin:1.4 beta3
11:09:42 PM - 2 ---> {JvS}Ptolemy[JT] Plugin:1.3
11:09:42 PM - 3 ---> Padawan Plugin:No Plugin
11:09:42 PM - 4 ---> JvS+Spidey+JK Plugin:1.3
11:09:47 PM - [Console] - amkick 3
11:09:47 PM - Padawan was kicked.
11:09:51 PM - Padawan connected
11:09:55 PM - JvS+Spidey+JK: <*thats twice i have kicked him*>
11:09:58 PM - Padawan entered the game
11:10:20 PM - {JvS}Ptolemy[JT]: last time before you are banned
11:10:31 PM - JvS+Spidey+JK: <*i got it ptol.. *>
11:10:35 PM - Padawan: Well ya'll know that's abuse anyways
11:10:36 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: you can't ban
11:10:39 PM - ---------------------
11:10:39 PM - A new JA+ client plugin version is available.
11:10:39 PM - Your client Plugin version is 1.3 and the lastest version known by the server is 1.4 beta3
11:10:39 PM - ---------------------
11:10:42 PM - May not switch teams more than once per 5 seconds.
11:10:43 PM - JvS CoG JP: u can
11:10:44 PM - JvS CoG JP: LoLz
11:10:47 PM - JvS+Spidey+JK: <*i kno... don't have to *>
11:10:51 PM - {JvS}Ptolemy[JT]: he tell you his name spidey?
11:10:52 PM - ***********************************************
11:10:52 PM - JA+ Mod v2.4 beta6
11:10:52 PM - Author: Slider
11:10:52 PM - Type /aminfo in your console to display the Command list.
11:10:52 PM - Type /ammove in your console to display the list of NEW MOVES.
11:10:52 PM - Type /amAltDim to switch from 1st dimension to the alternate dimension(No Rules Dimension).
11:10:52 PM - ***********************************************
11:10:52 PM - Welcome to the server!
11:10:52 PM - MultiPlayer Saber Damages are activated! (the new JA+ damage system looking like the JK2 one.)
11:10:52 PM - JvS+Spidey+JK entered the game
11:10:52 PM - ---------------------
11:10:52 PM - A new JA+ client plugin version is available.
11:10:52 PM - Your client Plugin version is 1.3 and the lastest version known by the server is 1.4 beta3
11:10:52 PM - ---------------------
11:10:54 PM - JvS+Spidey+JK: BobaFett's Ultra Utility v3 Beta 17a - Ultra-Utility.com
11:10:58 PM - JvS+Spidey+JK: <*nope*>
11:11:02 PM - JvS CoG JP: y do ppl
11:11:05 PM - JvS CoG JP: gotta make shit so hard
11:11:13 PM - JvS+Spidey+JK: <*last chance pad*>
11:11:15 PM - Padawan: Cause it's not required to say it
11:11:20 PM - JvS CoG JP: well either way
11:11:20 PM - JvS+Spidey+JK: <*ok*>
11:11:23 PM - JvS CoG JP: uk the outcome
11:11:26 PM - [Console] - amsilence 3
11:11:26 PM - JvS CoG JP: whether it's a rule or not
11:11:27 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: post a ban appeal
11:11:32 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: on the forum
11:11:36 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: to be able to be allowed back in
11:11:39 PM - [Console] - amstatus
11:11:40 PM - 0 ---> JvS CoG JP Plugin:1.4 beta3
11:11:40 PM - 1 ---> JvS*Aragorn|DL Plugin:1.4 beta3
11:11:40 PM - 2 ---> {JvS}Ptolemy[JT] Plugin:1.3
11:11:40 PM - 3 ---> Padawan Plugin:No Plugin
11:11:40 PM - 4 ---> JvS+Spidey+JK Plugin:1.3
11:11:54 PM - Padawan was kicked.
11:11:57 PM - [Console] - amlockteam s
11:11:57 PM - spectator team locked!
11:11:57 PM - Server: jp_teamLock changed to 2
11:12:00 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: brb
11:12:02 PM - JvS*Aragorn|DL: !mini
11:12:03 PM - JvS+Spidey+JK: <*k*>
11:12:12 PM - JvS*Aragorn|D was sabered by JvS CoG JP
11:12:28 PM - JvS+Spidey+JK: <*silence goes away if someone reconnects correct?*>
11:12:32 PM - {JvS}Ptolemy[JT]: yes
11:12:33 PM - JvS CoG JP: yeah
11:12:41 PM - JvS CoG JP: that's y my /recon is binded
11:12:42 PM - JvS CoG JP: <3
11:12:50 PM - JvS+Spidey+JK: <*well... not that hard to resilence him*>
11:12:58 PM - {JvS}Ptolemy[JT]: he is banned
11:13:04 PM - JvS+Spidey+JK: <*ohhhh*>
11:13:06 PM - JvS+Spidey+JK: <*ok*>

the only thing i edited out was the password when i logged in as an enforcer

Is what happened, nothing really happened ingame besides the chat

by **Spidey** Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:54 pm

i thought i was doing what i was told to do... i didn't ban him... nor did i ask him to be banned... i got you (champ) sayin i was wrong... got dray sayin i was right... im very confused... perhaps i will just use it for GIW for a while till i get everything down... id rather do that than get in trouble Smile

by **Champion** Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:16 pm

Ok now that I read the log spidey you did ok you guys showed decent tact and it seemed there was just a misunderstanding. In the TFFA you can use any alias you want without question as long as it is within the rules, on the CW however if an admin asks you need to reveal your identity. Im pretty sure that rule was put in place because pass words were being leaked.

by **Talkin'boutFreedom** Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:23 pm

That's just unwritten law so far I see

by **Champion** Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:32 pm

Talkin'boutFreedom wrote:That's just unwritten law so far I see

The rules that pop up when you join were written by me but they are the guidelines. I would think people with admin would display enough common sense to not need a manual on how to treat others. If you have some suggestions for improvement by all means go right ahead im always open to suggestions.

by **Spidey** Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:35 pm

ok... thank you champ... had this been in tffa i would have said nothing... but since i was in the private server.. i felt he should have told me who he was... i was trying to make sure the pw was not leaked... he didn't tell me so i kicked him... ptol is the one that banned him... but what is done is done... i hope he will be unbanned and we can move on Smile

by **Ptolemy** Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:53 pm

I have made my view and wishes clear.

Serv did this to start this discussion pure and simple. Was not abuse it was enforcing the rules. As an admin he should know that you identify yourself on the CW. The fact that it would be in question weather or not an admin would have the right to kick someone from that server that has no right to be there is asinine.

This is a bit extreme admittedly but, its like coming home to someone eating my food that i do not know and should not be in my house. it is private property, i should not have to explain to someone that if they should not have access they cannot be here. that should be understood!

by **Champion** Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:57 pm

Interesting point. In just about any culture in the world law gives rights to defend oneself in ones home domain be it a hut, house or trailer. The CW server is private property of the clan and as I said earlier, some common sense has to apply here.

Thank you very much!

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