Re: So much for the US being a secular nation

by **Disturbed** Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:11 pm

pshhh I'm not getting into that argument again. Well some ppl should do research before pissing off 'extremists' because quite frankly, the ppl who organized it really sucked at it.

And lets try oranges and rotten apples, that would serve a better purpose. And the analogy was not meant to be taken literally yet I am sure you were aware of that and are only trying to piss us off. Next post like that from you will be deleted.

Getting back on topic, read my previous posts. And champs. YOur not countering our statements and I refuse to reply until u directly respond without manipulating meanings and implications.

by Nihil Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:52 am

I didn't know that it was an analogy O.o

And I didn't need to counter your arguments, because they weren't really arguments, you just pointed out the obvious.

I'll quote dray here

ok then let me explain to you what Context is.

if i said i like flowers, is one thing. if i said i like flowers, created by God, is another thing. if you pledge yourself to America is one hting. If you pledge yourself to America, a nation created by God is another thing. in the first one you are simply pledging yourself to America. you recognize America and officially pledge yourself to it, you acknowledge its existence and your allegiance to it as well. now when you pledge yourself to America, a nation under God, you are pledging yourself to America, but you are also admitting the existence of God, and you are pledging yourself to a country you acknowledge is created by God. I dont fucking care, its words and i dont believe in pledges or alliegances. But many people dont want to acknowledge America was created by God, because they dont believe in it.

besides, stating a belief that is not shared, find any other statement in the pledge besides that god exists, there are none, except those guaranteed by the Bill of rights.

What if you were a hindu? You are polytheistic, you can't say god, because that invokes a single deity. Right now, you don't have a problem with it, because that is your religion, a god,

but you go into a fit if I draw mohammed?

double standards much, you can't have it both ways, pick one.

by **Disturbed** Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:04 am

actually, if u did proper research, you would know that Hindus actually believe in a single God with many manifestations. So the phrase would be acceptable to them.

LIke I said ur analogy is completely flawed.
The phrase 'under God' does not require submittance or belief in God. In fact, I'm pretty sure an Atheist can omit that if it feels so bad to him and it not being the end of the world. No one is per se, disrespecting him or any polytheist by using that statement since it only asks that the nation be guided by the divine hand, whatever that may be. God does not merely imply Christ, Alllah or Buddha, but if u remember correctly, was used for the Ancient Greek Deities as well. And if you don't believe in a divine hand, it really doesn't matter since you are still hoping for the best of the country in a sincere way rather than nitpicking over American Flags. All this coming from half a foreigner, and then ppl here talk abt patriotism or lack there of. >.>

I answered your double standards claim in my previous post.

by Nihil Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:23 am

Hinduism is a diverse system of thought with beliefs spanning monotheism, polytheism,[39] panentheism, pantheism, monism, and atheism, and its concept of God is complex and depends upon each particular tradition and philosophy. It is sometimes referred to as henotheistic (i.e., involving devotion to a single god while accepting the existence of others), but any such term is an overgeneralization.[40]

Hmmm...

so it involves polytheism...

well that settles that.

so, if you participated in a polytheistic religion, then what god? wouldn't it be more proper to announce that god by its proper name then, to specify? Doesn't that imply to presence of ONE ALMIGHTY?

their are numerous fractures within your argument, including polytheism, atheists, the kid who gets in trouble for not saying the pledge, look up that story, the freedom of religion, and more.

by **Disturbed** Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:29 am

in 2 years I have rarely actually spoken the pledge and not gotten anything for it. Ofc, lipsyncs are useful. What's sad is that ppl are devoting time to these kind of things when there are already problems galore for the Supreme Court and others to handle, and I think aard mentioned this earlier.

And yet, by means of ur argument, it also involves monotheism, eh? Do u see any person with a life complaining abt the pledge not containing 'under Allah' instead of 'under God', tbh most Hindus, Muslims etc. who are from abroad don't give a bloody fuck abt the constitution or the pledge of allegiance, since in practicality, it is little more than a mandatory speech at public schools that is there to show off our wonderful voice imitation skills.

by Nihil Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:46 pm

then they shouldn't give a bloody fuck about people drawing mohammed.

by **dandaman7** Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:35 pm

Nihil wrote:then they shouldn't give a bloody fuck about people drawing mohammed.

sigh

by Deadly Assassin Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:41 pm

we havnt banned nihil from the forums yet why

by Nihil Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:59 pm

Makes sense doesn't it? Or do I need to explain it?

by **dandaman7** Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:12 pm

go ahead and explain

by **Ptolemy** Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:33 pm

Sesshomaru wrote:we havnt banned nihil from the forums yet why

I do not know. Personally, i grow tired...

by Nihil Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:12 am

I don't understand why you guys have to be mean to me when I haven't done anything to deserve it?

dandaman7 wrote:go ahead and explain

which part?

by **dandaman7** Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:30 am

Nihil wrote:then they shouldn't give a bloody fuck about people drawing mohammed.

that part.

No one's trying to be really mean, but it does get annoying. But hey, you have the right to be offended like Muslims by drawing Muhammed, eh? After all, the people for that day 'were trying to prove a point', just like Ptol and Sess.

by Nihil Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:47 am

No Ptol and Sess were complaining about me.

Ptolemy wrote:
Sesshomaru wrote:we havnt banned nihil from the forums yet why

I do not know. Personally, i grow tired...

now to answer your question Dist Wrote

Disturbed wrote:pshhh I'm not getting into that argument again. Well some ppl should do research before pissing off 'extremists' because quite frankly, the ppl who organized it really sucked at it.

And lets try oranges and rotten apples, that would serve a better purpose. And the analogy was not meant to be taken literally yet I am sure you were aware of that and are only trying to piss us off. Next post like that from you will be deleted.

Getting back on topic, read my previous posts. And champs. YOur not countering our statements and I refuse to reply until u directly respond without manipulating meanings and implications.

to which I replied

Nihil wrote:I didn't know that it was an analogy O.o

And I didn't need to counter your arguments, because they weren't really arguments, you just pointed out the obvious.

I'll quote dray here

ok then let me explain to you what Context is.

if i said i like flowers, is one thing. if i said i like flowers, created by God, is another thing. if you pledge yourself to America is one hting. If you pledge yourself to America, a nation created by God is another thing. in the first one you are simply pledging yourself to America. you recognize America and officially pledge yourself to it, you acknowledge its existence and your allegiance to it as well. now when you pledge yourself to America, a nation under God, you are pledging yourself to America, but you are also admitting the existence of God, and you are pledging yourself to a country you acknowledge is created by God. I dont fucking care, its words and i dont believe in pledges or alliegances. But many people dont want to acknowledge America was created by God, because they dont believe in it.

besides, stating a belief that is not shared, find any other statement in the pledge besides that god exists, there are none, except those guaranteed by the Bill of rights.

What if you were a hindu? You are polytheistic, you can't say god, because that invokes a single deity. Right now, you don't have a problem with it, because that is your religion, a god,

but you go into a fit if I draw mohammed?

double standards much, you can't have it both ways, pick one.

from there it boiled down to this really

Dist wrote: And yet, by means of ur argument, it also involves monotheism, eh? Do u see any person with a life complaining abt the pledge not containing 'under Allah' instead of 'under God', tbh most Hindus, Muslims etc. who are from abroad don't give a bloody fuck abt the constitution or the pledge of allegiance, since in practicality, it is little more than a mandatory speech at public schools that is there to show off our wonderful voice imitation skills.

Then I wrote: then they shouldn't give a bloody fuck about people drawing mohammed.

I think that sums it up, I think.

and to further explain the argument:

God implies a single creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority, and it also shows a statement regarding a religion.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech..."

To me, the phrase god is in deference to the Judeo-Christian, and thus, as an extension, Muslim and all other sects of these religions, such as Sufism.

by **Spidey** Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:34 am

Ptolemy wrote:
Disturbed wrote:errr foot baths? Where? And the thing is, we don't need prayer rooms, can pray pretty much anywhere long as its clean.

The only favor I could say is allowing to grow beard/ wear religious headgear etc. but not allowing that is against constitution.

In Minnesota schools, if there is a Muslim population, the schools have bowed to pressure from Muslim and human rights groups and put in foot baths and prayer rooms. but if a Christian asks for a room to pray in they are told no because of the establishment clause. Makes no sense right? A couple of articles about the subject.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-07-25-muslim-special-treatment-from-schools_N.htm

http://educationalissues.suite101.com/article.cfm/muslim_prayer_in_public_schools

Personally i do not care if they are provided or not but, if you provide them for one you have to provide for all. Christian, Muslim, Buhddist, Wiccan what ever. If it is represented you have to provide a room for prayers. Wiccan may be a bit difficult with the bon fires and such...

i've never made a bon fire... or known any reason to use one during any ritual Smile

just to clear that up Smile

and it should say "Wicca may be a bit..."

by **Disturbed** Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:42 am

listen lets try and put this down really simple:

'Under God': Some guy in school wearing a shirt being called wrong because his shirt professes love of Metal music and ppl hate him for that.
'DMD' = some guy with a shirt that basically says 'Fuck all you (insert race/stereotype here) then saying 'what are u gonna do abt it eh?'...more of a challenge almost imo

by Nihil Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:38 pm

Those are opinions Dist.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech..."

by **Aureus** Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:52 pm

Yeah but isn't this whole conversation opinion based? (I just hopped in /didnotread) xd

by Nihil Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:54 pm

sure, but we are talking about god as a statement,

"under god"

this argument is opinion based, good point. But I still think that making a statement about god rejects the first amendment.

by **Aureus** Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:59 pm

Idk, me personally, couldn't give a lesser shit what people do on their time. If they ''need'' to pray during a class, let them step out and do so. It's their loss of time for education. As long as it doesn't hurt me, for example having to stop school for an hour so a group can pray, then let them do what they feel they need to.

by **Ptolemy** Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:15 pm

Nihil wrote:I don't understand why you guys have to be mean to me when I haven't done anything to deserve it?

dandaman7 wrote:go ahead and explain

which part?

Lets try because you beat a dead horse over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over

It gets a little irritating. you refuse to leave others to their beliefs when you do not get an answer you like. you refuse to believe there is not another answer. in scientific research that is great. in debate or conversation it is being a pain in the ass...

you must be a real party killer... seriousy

by **Aureus** Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:17 pm

Lol ptol... Lol

by **Ptolemy** Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:10 pm

Master CoG wrote:Idk, me personally, couldn't give a lesser shit what people do on their time. If they ''need'' to pray during a class, let them step out and do so. It's their loss of time for education. As long as it doesn't hurt me, for example having to stop school for an hour so a group can pray, then let them do what they feel they need to.

I am in the same boat as you i just say if you do it for one you have to do it for all or that is favoring one religion over another. i do think there should be respect for religious beliefes, but you do not have the right to NOT be offended in this country.

by Nihil Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:03 pm

Ptol, don't stoop so low as to call people names, an adult shouldn't do that.

Also, people are allowed to pray in class, its not illegal.

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/rel_liberty/publicschools/topic_faqs.aspx?topic=school_prayer

by **Disturbed** Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:17 pm

Master CoG wrote:Idk, me personally, couldn't give a lesser shit what people do on their time. If they ''need'' to pray during a class, let them step out and do so. It's their loss of time for education. As long as it doesn't hurt me, for example having to stop school for an hour so a group can pray, then let them do what they feel they need to.

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